Lug-Centric/Hub-Centric Issue? What is the real story

[Tundra-TNVol]

I recently purchased this really nice 2003 Tundra Access Cab 2WD but have had the wheels balanced 4 times since March (~ 4 months) due to the vibrations - generally above 50 mph. I have read something about the Tundra's requiring an odd method of balancing the tires/wheels. My truck has standard grey painted steel wheels (not aluminum alloy). Is this issue tied specific to the type of wheel? Look forward to hearing a solution; preferrably one that doesn't cost a lot of money.

[mongooztt]

tundras are lug-centric

[Heatwave]

Originally Posted by Tundra-TNVol

I recently purchased this really nice 2003 Tundra Access Cab 2WD but have had the wheels balanced 4 times since March (~ 4 months) due to the vibrations - generally above 50 mph. I have read something about the Tundra's requiring an odd method of balancing the tires/wheels. My truck has standard grey painted steel wheels (not aluminum alloy). Is this issue tied specific to the type of wheel? Look forward to hearing a solution; preferrably one that doesn't cost a lot of money.

Four balancings in four months isn't right. Are you taking your truck to the same shop each time? You might want to try another shop.

A lotta things can cause balance problems, including:
> bent wheel
> balance weight that fell off
> tire out of round
> wheel alignment out
> wheel to axle mounting problem
> structural damage to truck
> suspension wear or damage
> wheel bearing wear or failure
> brake component wear or failure
> internal tire deconstruction

I'd find a different shop that has computer-aided balancing and alignment systems and I'd explain the problems and ask them for solutions. You might need new tires and/or new wheels.

Good luck, Mate. Let us know how you resolve this.

[MOREPOWER]

Tundras with alloy wheels are all hub centric from factory 108 mm center bore. Steel wheels come lug centric but not 100% on that.

[DJ]

Originally Posted by mongooztt

tundras are lug-centric

That's the kind of generalization that results in tires being poorly balanced. It just ain't so.

Originally Posted by MOREPOWER

Tundras with alloy wheels are all hub centric from factory 108 mm center bore. Steel wheels come lug centric but not 100% on that.

Yup, but how do you tell? That's the real question.

It's been addressed in this forum a great many times. Once again, the search engine is a big help. You might want to read Hub Centric and specifically Hub Centric

I'll duplicate that post here, slightly edited for this context:

To determine whether a particular wheel mounting is hub centric or lug centric is quite easy. What is important to note is that it is not the wheel that is hub or lug centric, rather it is the mounting of the wheel on the hub that is either hub or lug centric. So, you have to look at the hub, the wheel, and the lug nuts to puzzle it out.

Here is a paraphrase from a post I made on this forum last November, concerning how to determine whether a particular wheel mounting is hub centric or lug centric:

How would I determine if my Toyota OEM alloy wheel is hub centric? I'd take one wheel off the vehicle. I'd pick up one of my lug nuts. I'd push the lug nut into the hole where the corresponding lug bolt sticks through. I'd notice that the lug nut goes through the hole such that the washer on it is flat up against a corresponding flat machined boss on the wheel that surrounds the lug hole, and that, with the washer flat against the boss, I can rattle the lug nut about in the hole. This means that, because the lug nut is a loose fit in the hole, the lug nut cannot locate the wheel with precision relative to the lug bolt. That's a hub-centric mount because it cannot be a lug-centric mount. I'd verify that by then noting that the center hole of the wheel is a relatively snug fit over the hub, such that this precise fit nicely locates the wheel with precision relative to the hub.

[...] My Toyota OEM alloy wheels on my '00 Tundra and my wife's '01 Sequoia are hub centric as I've described above.

My Tundra has a Toyota OEM stamped steel wheel for a spare. It's center hole is a loose fit on the hub, and the lug holes are punched with conical countersinks. The same lug nuts that hold the alloy wheels on in hub centric manner are used to hold the steel spare on the hub in lug centric manner. These lug nuts each have a conical end that fits tightly in the conical countersink of the corresponding lug hole, which thereby locates the wheel relative to the lug.

In summary:

1) The same lug nuts are usable with my Toyota OEM alloy wheels and Toyota OEM stamped steel spare wheel. That is done so that I don't need a separate set of lug nuts for use with the spare.

2) When used with the OEM alloy wheels, the mounting is hub centric because the lug nuts cannot locate the wheel relative to the lug bolts with any precision. Each is a loose fit in the corresponding lug hole, with a flat washer mating against a corresponding flat boss. All each one does is firmly clamp the wheel up against the hub. The wheel is located on the hub by the tight fit of the hub over the center hole.

3) When used with the OEM steel wheel, the mounting is lug centric because the lug nuts locate the wheel relative to the lug bolts with precision. Each is a tight fit in the corresponding lug hole, with a conical end mating precisely with a corresponding conical countersink. Each one both firmly clamps the wheel up against the hub and firmly locates the wheel on the hub by the tight fit of the lug nuts to the lug holes.

[benbeaux]

Originally Posted by DJ

<SNIP>Hub Centric and specifically Hub Centric
<SNIP>

Wow, thanks DJ, I just learned something of value. My head is reeling...

[Tundra-TNVol]

Originally Posted by Heatwave

Four balancings in four months isn't right. Are you taking your truck to the same shop each time? You might want to try another shop.

A lotta things can cause balance problems, including:
> bent wheel
> balance weight that fell off
> tire out of round
> wheel alignment out
> wheel to axle mounting problem
> structural damage to truck
> suspension wear or damage
> wheel bearing wear or failure
> brake component wear or failure
> internal tire deconstruction

I'd find a different shop that has computer-aided balancing and alignment systems and I'd explain the problems and ask them for solutions. You might need new tires and/or new wheels.

Good luck, Mate. Let us know how you resolve this.

I have taken the truck in to 3 different shops (one twice -- the Toyota dealer). I am wondering if this is a case of a junior/untrained person doing the job. I spent a couple of hours last night doing research on the web and found that a particular Hunter balancing machine is quite capable of doing the job. Also found that my Toyota dealer has one. Imagine that. If there was a problem with the truck they should have spotted that. If the problem was with a tire, the machine and technician should have been able to isolate it. I also was able to locate the contact info for a Hunter factory technician and have attempted to make contact to ask for advice (looking for a personal recommendation of who locally is the best trained technician with adequate equipment). We'll see what happens.

[HOGWILD]

Found this researching this topic and was wondering if anyone who had Aftermarket rims with balance issues have tried them or know anything about them? JustForWheels.com

[DJ]

Originally Posted by Tundra-TNVol

I have taken the truck in to 3 different shops (one twice -- the Toyota dealer). I am wondering if this is a case of a junior/untrained person doing the job. I spent a couple of hours last night doing research on the web and found that a particular Hunter balancing machine is quite capable of doing the job. Also found that my Toyota dealer has one. Imagine that. If there was a problem with the truck they should have spotted that. If the problem was with a tire, the machine and technician should have been able to isolate it. I also was able to locate the contact info for a Hunter factory technician and have attempted to make contact to ask for advice (looking for a personal recommendation of who locally is the best trained technician with adequate equipment). We'll see what happens.

I have several comments here:

1) ANY Hunter balancer can balance your wheels properly. The "DSP" series of balancers are used only to measure and apply balance weights, and they all do a superb job. The "GSP" series of balancers are used to measure and apply balance weights and to measure and compensate for non-uniformities in the wheel and/or tire (i.e. "road force imbalance"). I suggest you make use of the latter, as you are likely to find a problem that it can help fix.

2) Hunter has long been a supplier to Toyota.

3) Buying proper equipment does not make a technician an expert any more than buying a piano makes a person a musician. Training is required and is frequently absent. Even with proper training, any technician can mess up any alignment or balancing job despite using the best equipment. Lack of training simply makes it highly likely.

4) You're going about it the right way. Keep after it and you'll eventually find a shop that has its act together.

[hsvhobbit]

I'm still fighting things around here. Even the Toyota dealerships swear that the steel wheels on my '03 are 'HUB CENTRIC'. I can't win. Nobody will do the work to balance my wheels using a lug-centric adapter and as a result my tires haven't felt balanced in years.

Not to insult you DJ but do you know of any official website that I can point these bozo's towards that will prove to them the darn things should be balance using the adaptors? When I invoke your name/credentials they just blow me off for daring to use some 'internet poster' as being more of an expert than THEY are.

[DJ]

Originally Posted by hsvhobbit

I'm still fighting things around here. Even the Toyota dealerships swear that the steel wheels on my '03 are 'HUB CENTRIC'. I can't win. Nobody will do the work to balance my wheels using a lug-centric adapter and as a result my tires haven't felt balanced in years.

Not to insult you DJ but do you know of any official website that I can point these bozo's towards that will prove to them the darn things should be balance using the adaptors? When I invoke your name/credentials they just blow me off for daring to use some 'internet poster' as being more of an expert than THEY are.

I am not insulted. I was one of the engineers at Hunter who designed the equipment they are refusing to use correctly, and I trained and mentored the engineers who did most of the design work and who continue to do so.

I know of no web site that explains hub-centric vs lug-centric well except this one. Bummer, but that's how it is.

You have run into "the wall", and there's no way through it or over it. "The wall" is the refusal by these people to admit that someone else knows something that they don't. Don't beat your head against it, as the only result of that is a sore head. Just take your money elsewhere and let them know why you are doing so. They will learn only if it costs them, but only if they know that it costs them not to learn.

There are shops out there in which the people involved try to do good work and for the right reasons. The trick, and the difficulty, is to find them. Once you finally find a good shop, stick with it and let them know why, and they will likely respond with good service. They will value you as a customer as much as you value them as a resource.

And, you are correct. If your wheels are lug-centric, then they need to be balanced using a lug-centric (i.e. Haweka) balancer adapater. The reasoning is quite simple. The principle is that the wheel/tire assembly must rotate about the same axis of rotation on the balancer as it does on the vehicle. That means it must be centered on the balancer shaft by the same mechanism as it is centered on the hub of the vehicle, namely the center hole and centering cones if it is hub-centric, and the lug holes via a Haweka adapter if it is lug-centric.

So, just how sensitive is this? As I noted in that other thread:

As an example, a 60 lb. wheel/tire assembly that is mislocated on the balancer shaft by 0.005" and then balanced there will be out of balance by 0.6 ounces when it is mounted on the vehicle.

That's five thousandths of an inch. That ain't much.

Why is it that sensitive? Look at the physics involved. Suppose you have a wheel/tire assembly that is absolutely uniform and in perfect balance. Then add a weight to the rim lip. As it spins, the net radial force outward caused by that weight is equal to

f = m x r x w^2

where

f = the radial force
m = the mass of the weight
r = the radius of the weight from the axis of rotation
w = the angular velocity (i.e. RPM)

Suppose there is no weight added to this wheel/tire assembly, which is in perfect balance as it rotates on the balancer. There is no net radial force, and it spins without making anything vibrate.

Suppose further that it is removed from the balancer and mounted on the hub on the vehicle such that the axis about which it rotates on the vehicle is displaced a small distance "D" from the axis about which it rotated on the balancer. Then the center of mass of the wheel/tire assembly will, in effect, be spinning about the axis of rotation at a radius equal to that displacement. It will exert a radial force as it spins that can be computed using the same formula as above:

F = M x D x w^2

where

F = the radial force
M = the mass of the wheel/tire assembly
D = the mismount radius of the wheel/tire assembly
w = the angular velocity (i.e. RPM)

A wheel/tire assembly that is perfectly balanced but mismounted produces the same radial force as a wheel/tire assembly that is perfectly balanced but with an extraneous weight added. To see the equivalence, we simply set the two forces equal to each other and solve for the relationship:

f = F

m x r x w^2 = M x D x w^2

m x r = M x D

m = M x D / r

For our example:

m = 60 lbs x 0.005" / 8" x 16 oz / lb

m = 0.6 oz

So, a 60 lb wheel/tire assembly rotating about a radius of 0.005" produces the same radial force as a 0.6 oz weight rotating about a radius of 8". And that is the nature of the problem that happens when a lug-centric wheel is mounted on a balancer using a centering cone instead of a lug adapter.

[oneprblmcat]

Originally Posted by Heatwave

A lotta things can cause balance problems, including:
> bent wheel
> balance weight that fell off
> tire out of round
> wheel alignment out
> wheel to axle mounting problem
> structural damage to truck
> suspension wear or damage
> wheel bearing wear or failure
> brake component wear or failure
> internal tire deconstruction

Did all the '03s come with anti-lock brakes? If not I'd add "flat spotting" tires to the list. Had a the same problem on a different vehicle.

Have you tried rotating tires to see if the vibration moves from one corner to another with a particular tire/wheel?

Good luck.

[Cian]

DJ -

Thank you! You're an asset to this forum.

[Tundra-TNVol]

Originally Posted by DJ

I am not insulted. I was one of the engineers at Hunter who designed the equipment they are refusing to use correctly, and I trained and mentored the engineers ...

f = m x r x w^2


where

f = the radial force

m = the mass of the weight

r = the radius of the weight from the axis of rotation

w = the angular velocity (i.e. RPM)

....
So, a 60 lb wheel/tire assembly rotating about a radius of 0.005" produces the same radial force as a 0.6 oz weight rotating about a radius of 8". And that is the nature of the problem that happens when a lug-centric wheel is mounted on a balancer using a centering cone instead of a lug adapter.

Kudos to Professor DJ!

That is an awesome discourse of the problem.

Also could not help but notice within the thread, I am not alone in thie local quest for trained technicians.

By the way, the Hunter web site has video clips of their equipment, shown with their own adapters being used in the process.

I still have not heard from my local Hunter technician. Will try to let you folks know when I do.

Regards!

[funfinder4]

Great post! I've always wondered if there was a 'easy' way for us DIY'ers to tell the difference.

Those having problems with tire dealers/Toyota dealers not wanting to balance your steel rims by means of the lug-centric adaptor, may I offer some advice.... You are the paying customer. You get to decided how you want your tires balanced. If they start giving you lip about wanting to do it their way, just remind them... You (the one paying them to do the work) want them to do it your way. If you have to, demand that you watch them do it so you can be sure they use the adaptor. If they don't agree, don't pay!