Valve pinging upon hard acceleration?

[brtundra]

Hey, anybody got bad valve pinging or engine just sounding horrible upon hard acceleration top end rpm's? Mine didn't always do that , but it has the past 5,000 miles or so? Tried differnet octanes, not difference? Could my engine be screwed up? Is this common with others?? Thanks guys

2004 tundra DC 10,000 miles

[brtundra]

Thanks tundrakc,

The reason I knew to try higher octane was I also have a Ford F-150 with 150,000 miles that has done it since day 1. The dealer just told me the ford was a "pinger" engine. Nothing could be done except run higher octane. So I did run highest octane and it still pinges, but I have had no problem whatsoever with the ford, except it pings. So I just got used to it.

Now this Toyota also does it so I am kinda ticked. I never tried the mid grade though, I never thought mid-grade would do anything? But I'll try it. Let me know how yours works out. I really don't thing pinging hurts the engine, just affects the performance.

[Chuck999]

Originally Posted by brtundra

Thanks tundrakc,

The reason I knew to try higher octane was I also have a Ford F-150 with 150,000 miles that has done it since day 1. The dealer just told me the ford was a "pinger" engine. Nothing could be done except run higher octane. So I did run highest octane and it still pinges, but I have had no problem whatsoever with the ford, except it pings. So I just got used to it.

Now this Toyota also does it so I am kinda ticked. I never tried the mid grade though, I never thought mid-grade would do anything? But I'll try it. Let me know how yours works out. I really don't thing pinging hurts the engine, just affects the performance.

I had a 4'runner for 14 years - it pinged from about the first month to the month I traded it in with 170,000 miles on it ... Premium, mid grade, low grade - pinged with 'em all. Sometimes it seemed worse than others but never ever could figure out what made it worse / better - other than the heat - always seemed way worse on hotter days ....

Then again - never had a single engine problem in 170k miles either ...

Now I hear a very little ping from my new 2005 Tundra as well. A lot less than the old 4'runner - but it's still there ... Guess it's just a Toyota engine kind of thing ... I had a Corolla with a little 4 banger that pinged as well ....

I'll try the mid-grade on my Tundra too - but I'm not optimistic ...

[brtundra]

Originally Posted by Chuck999

I had a 4'runner for 14 years - it pinged from about the first month to the month I traded it in with 170,000 miles on it ... Premium, mid grade, low grade - pinged with 'em all. Sometimes it seemed worse than others but never ever could figure out what made it worse / better - other than the heat - always seemed way worse on hotter days ....

Then again - never had a single engine problem in 170k miles either ...

Now I hear a very little ping from my new 2005 Tundra as well. A lot less than the old 4'runner - but it's still there ... Guess it's just a Toyota engine kind of thing ... I had a Corolla with a little 4 banger that pinged as well ....

I'll try the mid-grade on my Tundra too - but I'm not optimistic ...

Thanks Chuck,
I'm actually eginning to thing it has something to do with my ECU (air to gas mixture), I think that learning ability has put a damper on my being able to stomp it as well. If it's not the ECU than I think I have some engine issues, but I don't think so.

[foxer]

Originally Posted by brtundra

Thanks Chuck,
I'm actually eginning to thing it has something to do with my ECU (air to gas mixture), I think that learning ability has put a damper on my being able to stomp it as well. If it's not the ECU than I think I have some engine issues, but I don't think so.

Is it a pinging or more like a metallic ticking?

[confederate2]

Originally Posted by brtundra

Hey, anybody got bad valve pinging or engine just sounding horrible upon hard acceleration top end rpm's? Mine didn't always do that , but it has the past 5,000 miles or so? Tried differnet octanes, not difference? Could my engine be screwed up? Is this common with others?? Thanks guys

2004 tundra DC 10,000 miles

I have had the "marbles rattling in a jar" upon heavy acceleration or under load, since my truck was brand new. Dealer said it was normal, tech said his Tundra did the same thing. They recommended octane booster or higher octane gas. Believe it or not after several tanks of mid 89 octane Chevron instead of the 87 Chevron it goes away. Recently my wife used my truck and refilled with 87 Chevron, it rattled away until now after I have run several tanks of 89 thru it again.

[sparxwillfli]

Mine (2003 Step side V*) has pinged since about 3k miles. I did find something that made it go away though. It's called RXP. A gas additive in a very small red bottle, cost about 8 or 9 dollars but it makes a heck of a difference in how one runs.
I had a Ford Ranger, V-6 special order 4X4 and then a regular Ranger (V-6 4.0) before that that had 90k on it when I sold it. I used RXP in all three without any problems.
There's a guy on the AM radio here (Sat. morn - Ed Wallis) in Dallas/Fort Worth that's very honest and doesn't advertise anything he doesn't use himself. For real.
He was the 1st guy I'd heard mention it. I went and got some though I do remember thinking, " What the #*&%^ ? 8 dollars for that tiny bottle ? You gotta be kidding ! " but bought it anyway.
Poured it in and he was right. I could tell a huge difference in that Ranger with (at the time) 60000 miles on it and it only took a few seconds too.
I know, hard to believe. No I'm not a dealer either.
Try it yourself. Pour a whole bottle in your tank when it's half empty and I'd stake a paycheck on it that it'll make your Tundra quit knocking as long as there's nothing else wrong with the motor like bad timing or something.
Here's all I know about the stuff.
If you've got a car that won't pass emissions testing - with this stuff in it it very likely will pass.
If you've never ran RXP before or you haven't had your fuel injectors cleaned in a while, here's what you're to do.
You run 3 tanks in a row through your ride, at least 1 bottle per tank. After that you run 1 bottle every 3rd tank as maintenance.
I've used this stuff in cars as well and to be honest, I usually put a full bottle in a car as well which is about a 12 gallon tank.
Question comes up should I double up on the amount I put in my truck ?
Don't know, haven't tried it. I just know 1 bottle makes my V8 not sound like a broken Toy.
That clattering is down right embarrassing not to mention that I agree with the guy who said it certainly doesn't do any good to the engine either.
Try it.

[mako]

Mine has been a pinger under hard acceleration since day one. 94K on her now and she still runs the same way. I will give the mid-grade gas a try and see if it makes a difference.

[brtundra]

Originally Posted by mako

Mine has been a pinger under hard acceleration since day one. 94K on her now and she still runs the same way. I will give the mid-grade gas a try and see if it makes a difference.

Last week I put in a bottle of generic $1 gas treament, since then I have run 2 tanks NO MAJOR PINGING, ever so slight at maximum acceleration. The gas treatment may have offset the high water or alcohol content in my gas in this area. If anybody else can try and let me know if it helps them too, I'll know a bottle of gas treatment from time to time might help. Thanks!!!

[bounce]

I had the pinging...complained and complained about it to service people....

running 93 octane made it better...but

cleaning the dusty dirt crap off the Mass Air Flow sensor located on the air intake after the air filter.....made everything normal again.

[Cali D]

I have 94k and haven't experienced the problem. I recently read a post here where somebody stated that they had the pinging, which he attributed to ethanol. The only time it pinged is when he used gas containing ethanol.

[XS Speed]

well i had a 2004 trd ac that pinged all the time except when i ran premium
or tanked up here in canada(usually buy my gas in the u.s.) but my 2005 sr5 dc has never pinged until i made some recent mods (read sig) now i hear i slight ping when shifting and under light throttle. anyway the other day i was looking thru the owners manual and on the back cover noticed that it said for increased performance 91 octane feul should be used so its off to the us tonight to tank up and pick up my nitrous kit but that another story

[thumbster]

Originally Posted by tundrakc

Well,

It's been a while but I finally got Toyota to send a rep down to the dealer to meat me and discuss the "ping" problem I have. After a hour BS session where I was told that "ALL" Tundra's ping and that Toyota knows all about the problem (it's been doing this for 5 or 6 years now!!! from the 2000 - 2005-6 model) and that I should not be concerned about it. The problem is caused by the "short-skirt" piston design that they use in the 4.7 V8. The short skirt lets the piston cock and this causes piston slap (pinging) blah, blah, blah.... What a bunch of crap!!! You mean to tell me that in 5 or 6 years of production they couldn't fix this problem? Is this a Toyota or a Buick? - Tundrakc

First off, piston slap sounds totally different than spark knock (pinging). Higher octane gas can help, but one tank full is not going to show you a difference because the ecu takes several hundred miles to relearn any changes in air/fuel ratio and spark timing. Disconnecting the power to the ecu isn't going to speed up the process either. I've found that 87 octane fuel is optimal for our tundras (mine at least) and causes no noticable pinging or other problems. I would contribute the factor that the tundra ecu is calibrated to run very lean, which would certainly contribute to and cause pinging. If the O2 sensors were slightly under toleranced it would make the problem even worse.

[editmars]

Mine sounds like a loose valve, if that possible, like it is sucking, sucking, rattle, sucking...and so on but on on accelration. Same thing?

[v8Toilet]

Mine will ping on 87 octane under hard acceleration or when under a load in overdrive or when it shifts sometimes. With 89 octane it hardly ever pings except on very hot summer days under hard acceleration it sometimes pings. It never pings with 93 octane available here in the northeast. Now if you suspect you have a leaky valve you can test that with a vacuum gage.

I posted some information talking about detonation vs. pre-ignition to help clear up why your ECU might not be able to control it like many people say it should. This is of course assuming you don't have a defective knock sensor. Either way even if your engine has a good knock sensor it is still susceptible to pre-ignition and it still makes less power with 87 if the computer retards the timing due to low octane resistance in your engine.

Here is what I wrote.

Originally Posted by posted by V8toilet

Mine would ping on 87 momentarily under initial heavy throttle and then stop. When I use 89 octane it doesn't do that or I don't hear the bb noise for that short period of time when I give it allot of throttle.

Ping is nothing more than the fuel self igniting under the extreme temperatures of combustion. As the air fuel mix is compressed and the spark plug fires sometimes the flame front causes the fuel that is not burnt yet to compress even more and then start another flame front in the combustion chamber. These two flame fronts then collide and push on the piston unevenly. You hear this as a noise that sounds like bb's in the engine. This is called detonation. There is another thing similar to that called pre-ignition that is caused when the air fuel mixture self ignites before the spark plug ignites it because as the air fuel mixture compresses it, it heats up.

The only difference between 87, 89, 91, and 93 is that 87 octane fuel is more prone to detonation than 89 is and 89 is more prone to that than 91 is and so on. The higher the octane rating the higher the flash point of the fuel is. The flash point is the point of which the fuel self ignites.

Now if you use 87 and your engine experiences detonation than the knock sensor is supposed to pick that up and retard ignition timing. This lessens the cylinder pressures and thus stops detonation from happening. The only ramification of having less ignition timing is that you loose engine torque and mileage with less ignition timing.

Now if you do hear the bb noise than what you might be hearing is pre-ignition since the computer manages detonation. The computer can’t stop this from happening because ignition timing has much less to do with it. Pre-ignition is cause by the heating of the air fuel mixture from compressing it. If you compress a gas it gets hot. If it gets hot enough to reach the gases flash point than it self ignites and you get the bb sound. The computer might read it and retard the timing but it won’t matter because the fuel is self igniting without the spark involved.

Elevation does affect this because at sea level your engine takes in more air and thus more fuel due to the greater atmospheric pressure. The more air and fuel that your engines compresses in that cylinder the hotter it’s going to get because it’s compressing more air and gas into that same tiny space now. When you are in the high elevations your engine is taking in less air and fuel and so it compresses less air and fuel into that same space and thus it gets less hot. Higher elevation on a high compression engine has the same effect as a low compression engine at sea level. It compresses the air and gas mixture less!

Doing engine modifications can also make your engine more susceptible to pre-ignition and detonation. This is because breathing modifications like headers and intakes cause your engine to take in more air, which the engine than squeezes into that same small combustion chamber and because it squeezes more air and fuel into that same space it gets hotter.

If you want to stop it either be gentler on the gas pedal or use a higher octane fuel until it stops. Some engines in the same family will require higher octane’s than others. I know that the Lexus versions of the 4.7-liter V8 require a higher octane fuel than 87.

Mine would ping on 87 momentarily under initial heavy throttle and then stop. When I use 89 octane it doesn't do that or I don't hear the bb noise for that short period of time when I give it allot of throttle.

Ping is nothing more than the fuel self igniting under the extreme temperatures of combustion. As the air fuel mix is compressed and the spark plug fires sometimes the flame front causes the fuel that is not burnt yet to compress even more and then start another flame front in the combustion chamber. These two flame fronts then collide and push on the piston unevenly. You hear this as a noise that sounds like bb's in the engine. This is called detonation. There is another thing similar to that called pre-ignition that is caused when the air fuel mixture self ignites before the spark plug ignites it because as the air fuel mixture compresses it, it heats up.

The only difference between 87, 89, 91, and 93 is that 87 octane fuel is more prone to detonation than 89 is and 89 is more prone to that than 91 is and so on. The higher the octane rating the higher the flash point of the fuel is. The flash point is the point of which the fuel self ignites.

Now if you use 87 and your engine experiences detonation than the knock sensor is supposed to pick that up and retard ignition timing. This lessens the cylinder pressures and thus stops detonation from happening. The only ramification of having less ignition timing is that you loose engine torque and mileage with less ignition timing.

Now if you do hear the bb noise than what you might be hearing is pre-ignition since the computer manages detonation. The computer can’t stop this from happening because ignition timing has much less to do with it. Pre-ignition is cause by the heating of the air fuel mixture from compressing it. If you compress a gas it gets hot. If it gets hot enough to reach the gases flash point than it self ignites and you get the bb sound. The computer might read it and retard the timing but it won’t matter because the fuel is self igniting without the spark involved.

Elevation does affect this because at sea level your engine takes in more air and thus more fuel due to the greater atmospheric pressure. The more air and fuel that your engines compresses in that cylinder the hotter it’s going to get because it’s compressing more air and gas into that same tiny space now. When you are in the high elevations your engine is taking in less air and fuel and so it compresses less air and fuel into that same space and thus it gets less hot. Higher elevation on a high compression engine has the same effect as a low compression engine at sea level. It compresses the air and gas mixture less!

Doing engine modifications can also make your engine more susceptible to pre-ignition and detonation. This is because breathing modifications like headers and intakes cause your engine to take in more air, which the engine than squeezes into that same small combustion chamber and because it squeezes more air and fuel into that same space it gets hotter.

If you want to stop it either be gentler on the gas pedal or use a higher octane fuel until it stops. Some engines in the same family will require higher octane’s than others. I know that the Lexus versions of the 4.7-liter V8 require a higher octane fuel than 87.

Now it’s also possible that your engine could have sharp edges in the combustion chambers from the machining process that get very hot and glow red. These red hot sharp spots from the machining process will cause your engine to suffer from pre-ignition no matter what octane you use. The wrong spark plugs could also cause that! Excessive carbon buildup also will cause your engine to have pre-ignition as excessive carbon buildup can get red hot too just like sharp edges in the combustion chambers.