Brake Problems. Will Toyota Help?

[MOREPOWER]

Originally Posted by TUNDRAV8GEORGIA

I hope soo hell I hate to see what My insurance ( nationwide) will do on another Totalled Tundra these truck are not cheap.They are going after the other guy insurance that hit my last Tundra Hopefully I collect and pay this new one Out and have NO truck payment's again urgg i hate payment's

well at least you got an even nicer truck yeah my next tundra will probably be white, good luck with the insurance i hate dealing with them

[Tundrav8yamaha]

back to topic at hand read this i found cleaning out my old paper work on service on my old Tundra they openly admit there is a problem and yes I called them back again..I need to be an attorney for my second job

[MEvang]

One good thing my truck doesn't have ABS. This may make all the difference in the problems that you've had on the older trucks.
I'll deal with mine the way it is until it gives me problems. If it does, I've been known to do whatever it takes to fix something that bothers me.
I am amazed that Toyota went to that extent to offer you some goodwill. I have never seen the big three do that. They may send you a coupon for a $1000 off on a new truck, if you have one with fire bomb side mount fuel tanks that could have killed you in a crash just like the one you had. Chevy's goodwill for there '70- '80 trucks.
Mike

[KLS]

My 2001 braked smoothly and had minimal brake wear, but I took it into the dealership before the warranty expired and asked for the front brake TSB. It was a slow week, and they were looking for work. They put a dial indicator on the rotors, found runout (no surprise), and agreed to do the TSB.

After the TSB, the brakes still braked smoothly and had minimal brake wear. The Toyota trained automotive technician did leave one tubing nut slightly loose, but I tightened it myself to stop the slow brake fluid leak.

I have kept my rear brake adjusters moving freely, and they do adjust as needed every time I use the parking brake.

I don't know why some folks have the terrible brake judder. I know its real, I just don't know the cause. Brake judder is very often caused by brake pad material that is operated above its design temperature. The friction material binder then melts and deposits material on the rotors. This causes the grabbing that most folks automatically call warped rotors without having before and after runout readings.
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml
http://www.raceshopper.com/tech.shtml#warped_rotors

I bought slotted SP Performance rotors during the group buy, and installed Performance Friction Carbon Metallic pads. When installing the new rotors, I used a dial indicator to measure the runout. I had 0.001" on one side and 0.003" on the other side (one-thousandths and three-thousandths). If the runout had been greater, I would have tried the rotor on each lug position to find the minumum runout.

My thought for fireslayer is to give up on the dealership, or at least stop taking them so seriously. Find a quality independent shop that will
1) measure the runout of the hub surface the rotor mounts to be sure you have a true surface there
2) install a quality aftermarket rotor, and measure the runout of this also. Do not assume that new rotors were well made.
3) install a quality high performance pad like Performance Friction, Porterfield, or Hawk,
4) bleed and refill the system with quality brake fluid
5) check the operation of the rear brake adjusters and the rear brake proportioning valve.

Performance Friction makes premium brake rotors, but not for our trucks. They told me that they have seen no difference in service between cryogenic treated rotors and non-treated rotors of the same quality.


Ken

[MEvang]

I have to disagree with this article to some extent. My experience for about 25 years has been with everyday passenger cars. Now for the past 5 years I have been dealing with high performance Street/ Race type cars. Two different worlds all together.
On passenger cars/ trucks rotor often get warped or have excessive runout. Pad transfer as he states is usually seen of vehicles used to race. Most time it is caused by poor driver habits. They don't bed in the brakes properly, they don't heat them up properly before a race or they don't let them cool down properly. Many times the driver will sit with his foot on the brakes in the pits after working the brakes hard. This will transfer material.
On passenger vehicles, I never see this unless one a few things were happening. The driver drives with his foot on the brakes. The driver makes long slow stops all the time without giving the brakes some cool off time. Something in the system is causing residual pressure on the pads. This could be a caliper sticking, a hose collapsed, a brake booster push rod out of adjustment, a pedal shaft sticking, a faulty master cylinder, a fault booster, and the list goes on. Last I have seen this when there rear brake are not working for one reason or another, bad proportioning valve, bad or miss adjusted height valve, rusted up wheel cylinders.
The thing is this is something that can be seen on the rotor. I can spot it as soon as I see the rotor. Run out cannot be so easily seen and require a dial indicator to fine.
The thing to remember here is you have to treat the brakes as a complete system and this system includes the driver. And without me seeing one of these trucks with this problem I can not be sure of the root cause only give my opinion of what it could be and what should be checked based on my experiance.
Mike

[KLS]

Mike,
I have one experience with pad transfer. I tried Raybestos Quiet Stop pads on the rear of my Volvo 850. Terrible rear brake judder. I could cure it for a day or two by removing the rotors and sandpapering the surface, then the judder would return. Mintex pads cured the problem, with no other changes. (PBR pads are good, but tend to squeal. OEM Volvo pads are good but dusty.)


Ken

[Pigfarmer]

After 31500 miles my 2002 Tundra has begun shuddering while braking down steep hills. I have finished reading most of the posts here and have spoken to a local dealer who will be looking at the brakes on 9/26. They have preliminarily told me the parts cost alone to comply with TSB # BR-004-02 is close to $2000. Needless to say,the vehicle recently fell out of warranty and,if this turns out to be the brake juddering/replacement issue,I will want to decide quickly whether to have the dealer do the TSB or attempt to find an independent to put on after market vented rotors/ceramic pads,etc. (That may be a challenge in VT). Any thoughts/figures would be appreciated.

[KLS]

No on paying the dealership to do that work. It can be done much more cheaply by a local independent shop by cutting away the present backing plates to fit the new calipers.

Before you buy new calipers, I'd try higher performance pads. If the rotors have not been turned, have that done. If they have been turned once before, renew them. I'm not a fan of drilled rotors, nor do I think cryo-treated rotors are worth the extra cost. Be sure that the rotors are checked on the car with a dial indicator. Max runout allowed is seven thousandths of an inch, and that really is too much. Try for less.
http://www.raceshopper.com/tech.shtml#slotted_rotors

Also be sure the rears brakes are correctly adjusted and that the adjusters are in good working order. You do use your parking brake periodically so it adjusts the rears, don't you...essential.


Ken

[Tundrav8yamaha]

Originally Posted by KLS

No on paying the dealership to do that work. It can be done much more cheaply by a local independent shop by cutting away the present backing plates to fit the new calipers.

Before you buy new calipers, I'd try higher performance pads. If the rotors have not been turned, have that done. If they have been turned once before, renew them. I'm not a fan of drilled rotors, nor do I think cryo-treated rotors are worth the extra cost. Be sure that the rotors are checked on the car with a dial indicator. Max runout allowed is seven thousandths of an inch, and that really is too much. Try for less.
http://www.raceshopper.com/tech.shtml#slotted_rotors

Also be sure the rears brakes are correctly adjusted and that the adjusters are in good working order. You do use your parking brake periodically so it adjusts the rears, don't you...essential.


Ken

I never did understand what the overall purpose of using your parking brake on the rear what does this aid In .....If toyota required us to use the parking brakes I would use them but It a pain in the *** because I did that and forgot to disengage them wile driving and leaft the parking brakes on..

[Pigfarmer]

KLS-thanks for the info. I'll have the dealer look at the problem only and then have an independent put higher performance pads on and turn the rotors while on the car-they have never been done before. Hopefully I won't have to get the entire TSB done because I can't imagine going to an independent,showing him what needs to be done and insisting on specific parts-most of them up here would laugh me right out of the shop. Thanks again for the info.

[MEvang]

Erik,
As on most Toyota designed rear drum brakes the adjuster only work when you use the parking brake. It should only actually make an adjustment when enough shoe material is worn away enough to cause the adjuster lever to make it past a tooth on the start wheel. So, since the rears wear pretty slow, you don't need to use it all the time. On the other hand, here in the rust belt I recommended using it as much as possible. The Toyota parking brake system is very exposed, it is my experience in this area, that if you don't use it you will loose it.

Ken,
I can agree with you more and your last article. People don't realize that the rotors job is based on it's mass. It's not much different drilling hole in a rotor or machining it under specs. You loose vital mass. Mass that you need to dispense heat. Drilling and groves are used on racing brakes to clean the pads and keep the materials from transferring on racing brakes. You don't need racing brakes on your Tundra unless your racing.
Now if you buy a pad and get transfer as you said on your Volvo and everything is working right, I would do as you did and not use that pad. This is unacceptable. But pad materials and the hole science behind this is another subject all together.

Pigfarmer,
If you are having problems and have the old caliper I recommend the upgraded calipers. You can trim down your backing plates and use them. Look in to remanufactured caliper from you local parts store. Just make sure visually, your are getting the upgraded calipers. I think in one of the tech bulletins you'll find a photo of each. Buying them this way could be a big money saver.
I still think in any case your going to be better off with the OEM pads. You can always try another but be careful many times aftermarket can open another can of worms.

Just to let you all know I drove a 04 Tundra yesterday. The brakes did feel very different. They were a lot less sensitively and had a better pressure feel. My 01 brakes dose seem to stop much better though. This could be deceiving since my truck seems to dive under hard braking. I am considering check my height valve to see if it is sending enough pressure to the rears. I'll let you all know what I fine here.
Mike

[pearson1662]

Originally Posted by TMS2U

Mike hit it on the head.
I had the TSB performed way back when and never had a problem with it again. Upgrading to a set of cryotreated rotors should help

The explanation I was given for the TSB by the local Toyota sevice department was that the original brakes rotors and calipers were too small for the weight of the truck. Is this correct? They want $1300 for the TSB. Is that excessive? Is replacing the rotors with cryotreated rotors going to solve the probem?

Why not a recall?

[pearson1662]

Originally Posted by MEvang

I must admit one thing here, I have never had to use a dealers service department for any thing. I do know about your frustration, part of my job now it taking care of customer complaints. What I don't get is why they didn't do the TSB on your truck.
You should print a copy of BR004-02 and take this in to them or call the customer service rep back and say, hey there is a fix I have it here on paper why can't you guys do it.
Toyota has come up with this fix so the dealer has a way to take care of your complaint, It just doesn't make sense that they haven't used it.
Mike

Mike, the service rep at my local dealer didn't know that there was a TSB until I asked him to look it up.

[KLS]

Originally Posted by pearson1662

The explanation I was given for the TSB by the local Toyota sevice department was that the original brakes rotors and calipers were too small for the weight of the truck. Is this correct? They want $1300 for the TSB. Is that excessive? Is replacing the rotors with cryotreated rotors going to solve the probem?

Why not a recall?

That guy doesn't know what he is talking about. The rotors do not change. They are resurfaced if they still have enough material in them, otherwise replaced with identical rotors. I don't think cryotreated rotors make any difference. I inquired from Performance Friction who makes premium rotors, but not for our trucks. They said that they've seen no performance or rotor life differences in cryo rotors.

I'd get top quality replacement rotors and premium brake pads...Hawk, Performance Friction, Porterfield. No recall because it hasn't been exposed as a significant safety problem.

Pigfarmer, the indie shop better not have a problem with you asking for different design calipers made to fit your truck. If they do, dump 'em.


Ken

[MEvang]

Don't cryotreat the rotors. This is a process as I understand that hardens the metal. You don't want hardened brake rotors trust me.
I am trying to round up some up dated brake catalogs as mine are all about 5 years old. When I do I will check on aftermarket availability for the bigger calipers.
Ken is right the rotors are not changed. They just went to a larger pad surface area which required bigger calipers.
Mike