I am experiencing vibrations at certain speeds from what I believe to be the rear tires. This is after buying a new set of Michelin LTX AT 265 75 R16s, and having the alignment checked at the same time. I believe the problem to be coming from the rear tires/suspension, because I feel the vibrations through the seats and not the steering wheel. The probelem is most noticible when pulling a small trailer. The same trailer gives me no trouble when pulled behind other vehicles. Anyone have any thoughts?
i, too, am interested in this problem. my 04 DC does a similar thing at highway speeds. i feel it in the seats and can actually see the passenger seat vibrate regularly if no one is sitting there. i had the rear tires re-balanced. i am getting ready to rotate them to see if the vibration moves to the steering wheel. i am also suspicious of the carrier bearing/rubber bushing/whatever it's called where the driveshaft goes though just in front of the double cardan joint. it seems to have excess play and looks to be slightly out of alignment. once i can rule out the tires, i will be looking more closely at that. mine seems also to be worse or better during different loading and towing conditions. my alignment is to DJ's specs.
I am experiencing vibrations at certain speeds from what I believe to be the rear tires. This is after buying a new set of Michelin LTX AT 265 75 R16s, and having the alignment checked at the same time. I believe the problem to be coming from the rear tires/suspension, because I feel the vibrations through the seats and not the steering wheel. The problem is most noticeable when pulling a small trailer. The same trailer gives me no trouble when pulled behind other vehicles. Anyone have any thoughts?
Welcome to TundraSolutions.
Before I discovered this site and DJ's alignment specs, my truck always vibrated just as you described. After I got a proper alignment to DJ's specs and new Michelin Cross Terrains that were road force balanced, the vibrations disappeared.
The symptoms you describe scream "alignment" and insufficient caster in particular. Several people have reported vibrations that occur when towing things with their trucks. This again has frequently been related to insufficient caster which is made worse when weight is added to the back end by whatever is being towed. If you were unaware of DJ's specs when you had your alignment done, you will most likely need another one as virtually no techs are aware of DJ's specs.
If you are unfamiliar with DJ's specs and their relevance to vibrating Tundras/Sequoias, check out this thread in the Tires and Wheels forum: DJ's Alignment Specs. It's long, and you don't need to read every post but it's info that every Tundra/Sequoia owner should be aware of. The Cliff's Notes version of this thread is that you need to get an alignment to within fairly tight tolerances and not just within Toyota's stated range.
If DJ sees this thread, hopefully he may provide a response as well.
Good luck.
Paul
__________________ Completed Mods:
S&S long tube headers
Brembo rotors
TSB caliper upgrade
Akebono ProAct ceramic pads
Stainless steel braided brake lines
Total Chaos steering rack bushings
Alignment to DJ's specs
Century cap
Line-X
XM Commander satellite radio w/USA Spec dual aux input adapter
Future Mods:
Rearview camera system
Sound deadener
Fusion Drive
Flux Capacitor Control Unit (FCCU)
I have pulled several trailers a great many miles with my Tundra, and once with my wife's Sequoia. It's been my experience that vibrations can be expected, even with the wheels balanced perfectly and the truck aligned perfectly.
The Sequoia pulled a covered, single-axle U-Haul trailer, about 6' or so long, about 600 miles. It is a light trailer, made of aluminum, and I had a light load in it. Overall, it was about 1,500 pounds. I was scarcely aware it was back there, other than it was always in the rear view mirror.
The Tundra's first experience with a trailer was a covered, tandem-axle U-Haul, 6x12, about 900 miles. It was loaded to about 5,000 pounds overall and I had about 1,200 pounds in the truck. I was QUITE aware it was there, but it pulled very smoothly.
Next, I bought a trailer, a 16x7 flatbed with two 7,200 lb. axles and electric brakes. When pulling it empty, it weighed 2,100 lb. and the whole system vibrated. The springiness of the trailer tongue, the receiver hitch, and the frame was simply an underdamped resonant structure. I could not eliminate it, even by using a load-equalizing hitch. But, that trailer pulled fairly smoothly when loaded, and I once pulled it loaded to about 6,500 pounds about 550 miles. I no longer have that trailer.
Next, I have pulled my brother's 16x7 flatbed with two 3,500 lb. axles and no brakes. It's much lighter than mine was. When empty, it vibrates the same as mine did, but when full, such as with 34 sacks of Quikrete, it pulls as smooth as glass. I reduced the vibration quite noticeably by drilling a new hole in my receiver tongue so it fit as far into the receiver as possible.
Finally, I have pulled my other brother's 10' flatbed with a single axle. It's a lightweight trailer that I barely notice is there, but it vibrates noticeably when empty.
So, my experience has been that vibrations might occur despite all your balancing and aligning efforts. The whole trailer/hitch/truck system is sometimes an underdamped, resonant structure. It differs depending on the trailer, the load on the trailer, the receiver hitch, and the load in the truck. But, the Tundra design is not optimized for towing.
Before I discovered this site and DJ's alignment specs, my truck always vibrated just as you described. After I got a proper alignment to DJ's specs and new Michelin Cross Terrains that were road force balanced, the vibrations disappeared.
The symptoms you describe scream "alignment" and insufficient caster in particular. Several people have reported vibrations that occur when towing things with their trucks. This again has frequently been related to insufficient caster which is made worse when weight is added to the back end by whatever is being towed. If you were unaware of DJ's specs when you had your alignment done, you will most likely need another one as virtually no techs are aware of DJ's specs.
If you are unfamiliar with DJ's specs and their relevance to vibrating Tundras/Sequoias, check out this thread in the Tires and Wheels forum: DJ's Alignment Specs. It's long, and you don't need to read every post but it's info that every Tundra/Sequoia owner should be aware of. The Cliff's Notes version of this thread is that you need to get an alignment to within fairly tight tolerances and not just within Toyota's stated range.
If DJ sees this thread, hopefully he may provide a response as well.
Two questions? What is "road forced balance"? Where can I find DJ's specs?
A regular balance, the tire and rim are put on a machine, the tire spins, a digital readout tells the tech how much weight to put on the inside and outside of the rim, and where.
A road force balance, a tire is put on a machine, the tire is pressed against a roller which is like being put on the road under force.
To state it in one sentence: The idea behind "road force balance" is to make the tire/wheel assembly as round while under load as possible, such that whatever out-of-roundness that's left induces the minimum vibration possible into the suspension.
Ordinarily, a tire is perfectly round and uniform, as is a wheel. But this ain't ordinarily.
A tire is ordinarily fairly close to circular, the deviation at the tread being called "radial runout". A wheel is also ordinarily fairly close to circular, the deviation at the bead seat also being called "radial runout". Often, to the extent that the tire tread is circular, the center of that circle is not necessarily at the center of the bead circle. Often, to the extent that the wheel is circular, the center of that circle is not necessarily at the rotational axis of the wheel when it is mounted.
So, when the tire is mounted to the wheel, the radial runout of the tire combines with the radial runout of the wheel. The whole shebang ain't quite a circle, and it ain't quite centered on the axis of rotation it will have on the vehicle. That means it rolls down the road like a circus clown's bicycle.
What's a feller to do? Use the radial runout of the wheel to compensate, as much as it can, for the radial runout of the tire. That minimizes the net radial runout of the wheel/tire assembly. The Hunter GSP9700 balancer does this astoundingly well.
How does it do it?
The wheel/tire assembly is mounted on the shaft of the balancer and a roller is pressed against the tread as the wheel is slowly rotated. The roller presses against the tread with roughly 1,400 pounds of force, and thus the tire is "loaded" as it is in normal use. This forces the sidewalls and the tread to flex as they do in normal use, and the radial runout of the tread surface is measured by the devation in position of the roller as the wheel rotates. Part of that runout is due to the imperfect molding of the tire, and part of it is due to the non-uniformity of the sidewalls and tread.
Then two other small rollers are brought into contact with the wheel at the bead surface. This can be done on the outside of the wheel, or the tire can be removed and it can be done directly on the bead surface inside the rim. The latter is a bit more accurate, but the former works nicely, too, and is easier to do. The wheel is rotated slowly and the radial runout of the wheel is measured at the left and right bead surfaces. The runout of the wheel at the bead surface is simply due to imperfect manufacturing processes.
Now, how does it make use of these measurements? I'll simplify the arithmetic grossly, but it illustrates the principle. The balancer shows the operator where to make "match marks" on the wheel and the tire, which is usually done using chalk or a piece of masking tape. The operator then deflates the tire, breaks the beads loose, and rotates the tire on the wheel to align the match mark on the wheel with the match mark on the tire. Then the tire is re-inflated. What this does is mount the "high part" of the tire radial runout at the "low part" of the wheel radial runout. This minimizes the net radial runout at the tread of the whole assembly.
The tire/wheel assembly is then re-mounted on the balancer and weight balanced in the usual manner. The results are reported as so many "pounds of road force variation", wherein the "road force variation" is proportional to the net radial runout at the tread. The usual conversion factor is that one pound of radial force variation is equal to one thousandth of an inch of runout.
How sensitive is it? Usually, about 25 pounds of road force variation can be felt. It varies with the weight of the tire/wheel assembly and the vehicle.
Is it commonly done? Yup, and more than you might suspect. It is done on EVERY wheel/tire assembly on EVERY new vehicle. It's done in an automated process when the tires are mounted and balanced at the vehicle factories. So, if you want to get that "new car ride" again, then get your new tires road force balanced and get your suspension aligned properly.
And incidentally, don't assume that expensive wheels are good and cheap wheels aren't. Don't you just love old farts' stories?
My '00 Tundra and my wife's '01 Sequoia have Toyota OEM alloy wheels. They are CHEAP, er, I mean INEXPENSIVE. Go to ebay and try to buy some. Mine have less than 0.003" of runout maximum. That's almost too good, because you can't use the wheel runout to compensate for the tire runout if you don't have any wheel runout.
A friend at Hunter, some years ago, bought really expensive wheels for his Impala SS. They simply would not roll smoothly. The GSP9700 diagnosed them as being octagon shaped, which was the result of the tire busting machine bending them as its jaws expanded inside the rim to hold it while mounting the tire. Now, imagine how they bent under load on the road.
And finally, why do I buy, and recommend, ONLY Michelin tires? Because they are ROUND, they perform extremely well, and they do it for many thousands of miles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by acausey1
Where can I find DJ's specs?
Begin with Toyota's recommended alignment specs for your vehicle, which the alignment system console has in its internal database. Set camber and total toe dead on Toyota's recommended settings. Set caster right at the upper end of the range that Toyota's recommended specs for your vehicle allow. These settings will produce the maximum steering stability that Toyota's specs can provide, and, because they are within the limits that Toyota allows, neither Toyota nor the dealer has any grounds for complaint at their use.
DJ, I really hope that you used a cut and paste for that, rather than having to type the whole response.
I have two sets of tires, one winter, the other all seasons. This year I used the same set of rims, but this year I'll be getting another set.
Road force balancing is part of the reason. I had my original tires road force balanced, switched to winter tires, then back...now the originals are crap again.
The rims i'm going to get are from a Sequoia, so they should look interesting on my truck, I haven't seen any like them on a Tundra.
I also noticed that my 05 tundra seems to vibrate more on the highway when towing than when empty. I have a fairly new set of Bridgestone Revos that were road force balanced and my truck was also aligned to DJ's specs. When not towing anything it runs reasonably smooth but has a hint of vibration now and again, depending on the road surface. But when pulling my boat which is only a little 12 foot, very light load, I do notice more vibration at times than when not pulling anything. Whats with these Tundra's? They are great trucks BUT why do they all seem to suffer from some type of chronic vibration problems that no one has been able to solve?
I also noticed that my 05 tundra seems to vibrate more on the highway when towing than when empty. I have a fairly new set of Bridgestone Revos that were road force balanced and my truck was also aligned to DJ's specs. When not towing anything it runs reasonably smooth but has a hint of vibration now and again, depending on the road surface. But when pulling my boat which is only a little 12 foot, very light load, I do notice more vibration at times than when not pulling anything. Whats with these Tundra's? They are great trucks BUT why do they all seem to suffer from some type of chronic vibration problems that no one has been able to solve?
This is a response from a member called Hans, and it has some relevance.
I had my driveshaft replaced by the dealer, but i had to prove to them that it was out of balance and out of round and not serviceable according to the driveline shop. Also check if your rear axles run true, mine have been replaced for being out of round( that was my 04 Tundra, I have an 05 now).There is a TSB for checking the shoulder diameter on the rear axles for specific dimension, if it is out of tolerance, they will replace the axles. Also there is some info out for harmonic vibrations in the differentials, I have mine checked today for a bad l/h outboard bearing in the front diff, which I believe is the source of my vibrations. Good luck and don't give up on it.
Whats with these Tundra's? They are great trucks BUT why do they all seem to suffer from some type of chronic vibration problems that no one has been able to solve?
That's a very good question. From the posts on TundraSolutions and my own personal experiences, I believe that the suspensions of Tundras are inherently unstable. This is a design flaw that the engineers compromised on to get a smooth ride. The problem with this is that a smooth ride is frequently difficult to obtain due to the impact of the slightest of misadjustments.
Right now my truck vibrates as a result of a slight engine vibration that I will shortly fix. In its lifetime, my truck has driven without vibration for about 7,000 miles of its 77,000 life. Not anything for a company to boast about.
Hopefully, Toyota's engineers have learned and improved the design for the 2007 Tundra.
Paul
__________________ Completed Mods:
S&S long tube headers
Brembo rotors
TSB caliper upgrade
Akebono ProAct ceramic pads
Stainless steel braided brake lines
Total Chaos steering rack bushings
Alignment to DJ's specs
Century cap
Line-X
XM Commander satellite radio w/USA Spec dual aux input adapter
Future Mods:
Rearview camera system
Sound deadener
Fusion Drive
Flux Capacitor Control Unit (FCCU)
Vibrations coming from back tires/suspension
Linear Mode
