installed brakes

calebm12 · #1 (**permalink**) 07-23-2007, 04:52 PM

Yesterday installed new brake padds (Hawk) and new rotors (stock) on my tundra. Took it out for a test spin and everything was working good. However today i took it out on the highway and found that with speeds over 40 mph the truck vibrated when i braked. This is the first time i ever installed pads myself and i am wondering if the pads and rotors are just "breaking in" or if i did something wrong. Like i said and slower speeds no problem. I checked and double checked during installation. The pads did rub against the rotors some (i could still turn the rotor) and a buddy said this was normal. Any thoughts?
caleb

kknight · #2 (**permalink**) 07-24-2007, 01:21 PM

I would suspect that you did not follow proper "break-in" or if that isn't the case, you could possibly have a warped rotor. You didn't mention if you worked on the rear but I would look at that as well. I can't emphasize enough, just how important it is to make sure the rear brakes are performing 100%. I just installed the same setup and did a complete write-up on it so read it over and see if you find anything you might of missed. It's now been over a 1000 miles and my brake performance is just incredible. I know that with a little work, you can get yours up to the same level.

2003 Tundra - First Brake Job @ 78000

calebm12 · #3 (**permalink**) 07-24-2007, 04:20 PM

Humm. I didnt touch the rear brakes but doubt this is the problem as i didnt have the vibrating before the change. Warped rotor....well maybe? They are brand spankin new and this would suck if it was the case. I did NOT sand them down before install...didnt read i was to do this. I broke in the brakes at 35 miles in hour...but nothing above this...as i had to leave immediatly for the highway...hence i then found the vibrating. Should i take everything off and check for warped rotor? What a pain. Should i just drive it some more and see if it goes away. Please help!!
Caleb

kknight · #4 (**permalink**) 07-24-2007, 05:12 PM

At this point, I would try to bed them in and see if the situation gets better. You should still check the back brakes and get them to peak performance. I would bet that your back shoes are not even worn but just need to be cleaned, lubed, and manually adjusted. Let me warn you that you'll have to scrape and remove the spacer which is a major PIA but the good news is that you only have to do it once!!!

Picasso · #5 (**permalink**) 07-24-2007, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calebm12

Yesterday installed new brake padds (Hawk) and new rotors (stock) on my tundra. Took it out for a test spin and everything was working good. However today i took it out on the highway and found that with speeds over 40 mph the truck vibrated when i braked. This is the first time i ever installed pads myself and i am wondering if the pads and rotors are just "breaking in" or if i did something wrong. Like i said and slower speeds no problem. I checked and double checked during installation. The pads did rub against the rotors some (i could still turn the rotor) and a buddy said this was normal. Any thoughts?
caleb

Since you did not have the vibration before installing the new pads and rotors, it is likely that your rotors are the cause of the vibration.

It is most likely one of three things:
1. The new rotors are out of tolerance
2. The front hubs were not cleaned causing the rotors to fit very slightly askew. This in turn is causing the rotors to "wobble" which results in vibration when you apply the brakes.
3. When the wheels were put back on the lug nuts were overtorqued which derformed the rotors.

When you replaced the rotors, did you clean the surface of the hubs? Was a torque wrench used to tighten the lug nuts? Since you didn't have vibration before installing the new rotors, why did you replace them?

Let us know what you find.

Paul

calebm12 · #6 (**permalink**) 07-24-2007, 06:58 PM

I am not sure which part is the "hub"...so i probably didnt clean in. Sorry for the ignorance. is this the part of the rotor that sticks out some and is fitted onto the lug.
I tightened the lug nuts via a tourque wrench to 83....specified in the book. I am wondering if when i brought it down from the jack and it was not yet at 83 if it could have warped. I thought i read somewhere that it is extemely difficult to warp a rotor.
I switched the front pads and rotors cause the pads were worn and when i went to get the rotors resurfaced they didnt have the adapter to do so....so i just bought new ones.
Like i said the vibration doesnt occur at low speeds just high speeds. It is a vibration into the wheel, and is noticable but not really truck shaking so to speak. if that makes sense.
i have yet to tackle the rear brakes cause they scare the you know what out of me. but i think we can rule this out as the problem....though they definitly need attention.
what steps shoudl i take to get to the bottom of this. I leave for a 2 1/2 highway trip on friday so am thinking of driving as is for that....is this not safe?...and see how they are when i get back.
otherwise i got some time this week if you got some problem solving ideas.
thanks a bunch. i love this place.

Picasso · #7 (**permalink**) 07-25-2007, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calebm12

I am not sure which part is the "hub"...so i probably didnt clean in. Sorry for the ignorance. is this the part of the rotor that sticks out some and is fitted onto the lug.

The lugs screw onto the studs, and the studs are mounted on the hub. Specifically, it's the flat surface that the back of the rotor is pressed against when it is mounted and the lug nuts are torqued down. When you removed the old rotors, was this surface rusty? Was it difficult to remove the rotors from the hub even after the calipers were removed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by calebm12

I tightened the lug nuts via a tourque wrench to 83....specified in the book. I am wondering if when i brought it down from the jack and it was not yet at 83 if it could have warped.

Unless the lug nuts were loose enough to rattle when you lowered your truck, this is unlikely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by calebm12

I thought i read somewhere that it is extemely difficult to warp a rotor.

Unfortunately it is very easy to warp a rotor on our trucks, especially from overtorqing the lug nuts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by calebm12

I switched the front pads and rotors cause the pads were worn and when i went to get the rotors resurfaced they didnt have the adapter to do so....so i just bought new ones.
Like i said the vibration doesnt occur at low speeds just high speeds. It is a vibration into the wheel, and is noticable but not really truck shaking so to speak. if that makes sense.
i have yet to tackle the rear brakes cause they scare the you know what out of me. but i think we can rule this out as the problem....though they definitly need attention.
what steps shoudl i take to get to the bottom of this. I leave for a 2 1/2 highway trip on friday so am thinking of driving as is for that....is this not safe?...and see how they are when i get back.
otherwise i got some time this week if you got some problem solving ideas.
thanks a bunch. i love this place.

It sounds like you should be OK for the trip since your symptoms (vibration) don't sound severe. What I would recommend is that you take your truck to a brake shop and have them put a dail gauge to your rotors to see if they are out of round. This should be done with the wheels removed but with the rotors still on the vehicle. This will absolutely confirm or eliminate the rotors as the cause of the shaking. If they do measure as being out of tolerance, then either your rotors were defective or the hubs are really rusty causing the rotors to not fit straight on the hub. You can actually do this measurement yourself if you have a a dial gauge and know how to do this.

That's all I can think of for now.

Let us know what you find.

Paul

MEvang · #8 (**permalink**) 07-26-2007, 05:54 AM

I have to agree with Picasso assessment. Most likely you caught some rust or dirt between the rotor and hub.
A spec of rust just .001 thick can end up throwing the rotor off by .010 at edge. This would cause one heck of a shake.
Mike

calebm12 · #9 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 02:48 PM

So i finally had time this weekend to take my tires off and take a look at my brakes. After making a 3 hour trip to WV last weekend and the problem not going away i figured i better take a look based on yall suggestions. A reminder...i get vibration when i press the brakes at a speed on more that 40 miles per hour. The vibration is like a duh-duh-duh. Not teeth jattering but definitly steering wheel and car jaring. So i took of the tires today. Took off the calipers and the brand spankin new rotors and looked at the hubs. They had some rust on them but looked to be a pretty even coating of it. Nothing that looked like it would cause wobble. Looked like general truck wear. Not knowing what else to do, i cleaned them, and put everything back together and took it for a spin. Still got the vibration. Which leads me think what it could be?
1. It is very likey when i originally changed the brakes i switched the left and right tires. Would they need to be real balances and aligned...there is no vibration except for when i brake.
2. Is it possible i bought a warped rotor? I got it at pep boys....if this is the case do you think i can return em? they definiltly looked used now...bit of oxidation and such.
3. The right rotor i could see a very well marked groove on it. the same groove was on one of my brake pads. Normal?
4. On the left side, one of the rubber sleeves that the piston sits in has a hole in it.
Beyond this i am stumped and frustrated. The trucks doesnt feel good on the highway at all...and this was not the case before the new intallation.
any help would be MOST appreciated!
Caleb

robbob · #10 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calebm12

So i finally had time this weekend to take my tires off and take a look at my brakes. After making a 3 hour trip to WV last weekend and the problem not going away i figured i better take a look based on yall suggestions. A reminder...i get vibration when i press the brakes at a speed on more that 40 miles per hour. The vibration is like a duh-duh-duh. Not teeth jattering but definitly steering wheel and car jaring. So i took of the tires today. Took off the calipers and the brand spankin new rotors and looked at the hubs. They had some rust on them but looked to be a pretty even coating of it. Nothing that looked like it would cause wobble. Looked like general truck wear. Not knowing what else to do, i cleaned them, and put everything back together and took it for a spin. Still got the vibration. Which leads me think what it could be?
1. It is very likey when i originally changed the brakes i switched the left and right tires. Would they need to be real balances and aligned...there is no vibration except for when i brake.
2. Is it possible i bought a warped rotor? I got it at pep boys....if this is the case do you think i can return em? they definiltly looked used now...bit of oxidation and such.
3. The right rotor i could see a very well marked groove on it. the same groove was on one of my brake pads. Normal?
4. On the left side, one of the rubber sleeves that the piston sits in has a hole in it.
Beyond this i am stumped and frustrated. The trucks doesnt feel good on the highway at all...and this was not the case before the new intallation.
any help would be MOST appreciated!
Caleb

1. No need to rebalance or align after a simple brake job. You should be rotating tires periodically to get the most even wear out of them.
2. Possible, but not likely. It doesn't take but a very very small amount of rust or something else to make a rotor not sit flat. Simplest rough way to look for warped rotor would be to lay a steel ruler or square against it and see if there is a visible gap. Dial indicator would be the better way, but most people don't have one handy.
3. bad juju and not normal from what you are describing, pictures would tell us for sure.
4. If the rubber has a hole in it, chances are you have a sticking piston and it is causing the brake pad to drag and create the groove. Should be fixed asap. Normally you can get a caliper rebuild kit from toyota, autoparts might carry it. Once everything is cleaned and rebuilt the piston should move slowly but smooth in the caliper bore.

calebm12 · #11 (**permalink**) 08-05-2007, 06:46 PM

humm.. the rubber on the caliper bore is on a different side than the rotor showing the groove.
if i cant get to it this week...next weekend i will take it all off again and take pics. i will also get a guage and check if i got a warped rotor.
will report back and post some pics. really got me frustrated.
maybe it is just the type of brakes i bought. they are toyota stock....but they are hawk hps.
is the next step to jsut get a new truck? hahah
caleb

MEvang · #12 (**permalink**) 08-06-2007, 06:09 AM

It's most likely too late: .001" of rust on the hub can cause as much as .004" runout in the rotor. Now that you have driven it a distance the pads will heat up the high spots more, causing additional warpage in the rotor. Even if they are straight on the hubs now they could still be warped. The use of a performance pad like Hawk probably contributed to this happening faster.
But I would quite guessing. Get a dial indictor on those rotors and see if you have run out. If so have them machined on the vehicle. Your problem could still be in the rears!
Also if you have a hole in a caliper piston boot your caliper is likely bad already. How did this piston go back in? Was it harder to push in then the others. You could have pushed corrosion over the seal and now this piston is dragging. This can lead to a warped rotor in the best situation.
I would not take a chance, either replace the caliper or rebuild it. The kits from Toyota are cheap enough. Just replacing the boot is just a cover up.
Mike

robbob · #13 (**permalink**) 08-06-2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calebm12

humm.. the rubber on the caliper bore is on a different side than the rotor showing the groove.
if i cant get to it this week...next weekend i will take it all off again and take pics. i will also get a guage and check if i got a warped rotor.
will report back and post some pics. really got me frustrated.
maybe it is just the type of brakes i bought. they are toyota stock....but they are hawk hps.
is the next step to jsut get a new truck? hahah
caleb

My bad on the rubber..I didn't read it right... . it still isn't good and still needs to be fixed, but probably isn't causing your grove.... but I would bet you have a sticking piston/brake pad causing it....

I have used stock toyota rotors and hawk pads before, there isn't an issue as long as the can slide in the caliper.

Once I got the cheepest pads I could just to get on the road while good parts were on order. The metal backer for the pads had a burr all the way around which prevented them from moving correctly. Had to grind that off.

Also, did you clean and grease your pins... i.e. I normally hit the pins with sandpaper then wipe caliper grease on them and off again. Leaves just enough grease to keep them from rusting right away.

During re-assembly, did you get the springs wrapped back around the pins and in between the pads in the right place so they push them back from the rotors ever so slightly when you let off the brake?

Robert

calebm12 · #14 (**permalink**) 08-08-2007, 02:55 PM

Am going to take a look tonight. I am about sick of draggin all my stuff out there and takin the tires off.
My pins are good. The slide in no problem. Last time i took them out i put them on the wheel and gently buffed all the rust right off them. They go in and out with just a thumb push.
I am pretty sure the spring are good too. Though these pads didnt fit the springs as well as the toyota stock pads. They fit but i had to kinda move them into place more so than i did with the stock pads.
i am gonna check out the trueness of the rotors tonight....
i bet you are right i got a piston that is draggin. but its weird that it would start all of a sudden...the brakes i replaced showed no such wear and i wasnt having an vibration issues with them.
i just thought maybe i should go to the yota dealership and get stock pads and try those....if they work i will chalk it up as a 50 dollar mistake...if they dont i will clean em and take em back.
i saw both the rebuild kits and the new calipers on the internet. i am inclided to just by a new caliper and go with that. however, i am a little hesitant of doing anything as undoing the brake lines freaks me out.
also have you read any good step by steps on cleaning the rear brakes??
thanks a bunch!
caleb

MEvang · #15 (**permalink**) 08-09-2007, 06:21 AM

Let me explain the caliper thing in a little more detail. You gotta a hole rip or tair in one of those boots. every time you hit a water puddle contaminants are forced in that hole along with the water. The piston that is exposed over the seal will accumulate this crude, plus a thin ring on the cast iron caliper just above the seal and under the boot will begin to rust. This rust ring will transfer to the caliper piston. At early stages all can work just find, until you push that piston back in to seat it. Now all this contamination is pushed over the seal and then the problems can begin to appear. This could be were you are at.
Cleaning the rear brakes:
1) Mark the drum to the studs and remove.
2) Use brake cleaner to clean out the dust on the shoes and drums
3) Examine the paper shim on the drum. Make sure non is stuck to the axle hub and that there is no rust on the axle hub. If there is clean it off. Coat the hub with a thin layer of silicone grease.
4) Examine the adjuster and work it a few times with a screw drive so your familiar with how it works.
5) Install the drum and wheel. Adjust the brake by turning the star wheel, till the shoes just touch. Do not over adjust. Pump the pedal a few time and check again adjust more if needed.
6) When spinning the wheel and drum feel for the shoes getting tight and loose. This is a sign that the drums are warped and will need replaced.
Over adjusting and uneven shim material or rust on the hubs can warp the drums. Be sure to torque the wheels when finished.
Mike