The good, the bad and the confusion with my recently attempted brake job

[t1704]

Thanks for all of the good info guys. I didn't get to it this past weekend due to some other committments, but I'll be sure to do it this coming weekend when I get back to town. Mike, I have read your thread on upgrading the early tundra brakes, in fact, it's printed and in my garage...GREAT INFORMATION!! I'll do the rotors and pads for now, I may adjust the rears a bit more and look for the drag your talking about that would suggest warped drums. I just put new Yoko Geolanders on it and I think I'll stay clear of the LSV for now. Mike, both the rotors and pads came with break-in procedures that were different from one another. Thoughts?

I'll update you guys once I get the new pads and rotors on.

Thanks again, Travis

[5 Speed]

No proof but just an opinion, because I have a V6 5 Speed 4x4 access cab that has had a 700 lb camper on it and it has over 125K on the original brakes with no problem I would bet that most automatic Tundras don't set their parking brake everytime they park. This is how the rear shoes are adjusted. If you had to adjust the rear adjusters than you have not been using the parking brake, they should be adjusted by using your parking brake, if they need adjusting than you probably have over heated your front brakes at some time. Just drive a motorbike a few times and stop without the rear brakes, you can feel how much just the slight addition of rear brakes makes the process so more efficient.

[MEvang]

Good advice, using the parking brake also keeps it working, If you never use it there is a good chance it will seize up and cause problems if you do.
Travis, can you scan those break in procedures and either post them or IM me.
Thanks,
Mike

[t1704]

Mike,

They're both on the box and I don't have the ability to scan, so I'll give you the run down:

The pads say to properly "Burnish", make 4 consecutive stops from 35-40 mph. Wait 15 minutes then make two stops from 60 mph.

The rotors just say there's a "bed in" period and they don't recommend any hard stops or prolonged braking for 150-200 miles.

I'm hoping to get them done today, but my travel schedul at work has been hectic, just got home Friday and leaving tomorrow. We'll see.

Travis

[MEvang]

Follow the rotor box. Let the pads bed in on there own. Heavy stopping like the pads suggest will often over heat the pad or rotor surface and could cause pad transfer.Two things that could lead to pulsation.
Mike

[kevinp]

I would like to post another possibility that is assisting to the chronic brake problems. No one on the board would doubt or argue that the brakes are under engineered on these trucks. But I have a friend who drove his first set of pads and rotors on a 2000 tundra for 100,000 miles. Now the next question would be what kind of driving does he do? He works his truck as hard or harder than anyone I know. I rarely see him with out a double axle trailer with 1 to 2 cords of wood in it. When he leaves his property it is 6 miles of gravel and then 40 miles of winding mountain road before he gets to a main freeway. I have ridden with him and he does not drive slow. But what he does do is use the transmission to slow himself down when he is in the corners and or going downhill. His truck is approaching 300,000 with original engine and transmission. His son got 106,000 miles out of his first set of rotors as well on a 2002. That set would not have been warped had he not loaned it to an employee. I would just like to suggest that there may be driving habits that will greatly help some of this chronic problem.

[MEvang]

Very interesting, what your saying would save on the brakes, but why would sacrifice your transmission to save on your brakes? Any way you look at it brakes are cheaper then transmissions.
A transmission is a wear item just like brakes and your just transferring the wear to the transmission.
Now your saying he hasn't had any transmission or engine issue. What I think is your guy doesn't really do this all the time but just when he needs to divide the stopping power between the brakes and trans. I would say he just has very good driving habits and know how to be easy on his truck.
This is not something I would recommended for just anyone. If you don't do this properly it's a good chance you will be buying a lot of transmissions instead of brakes.
I also wouldn't say the Tundra has chronic brake problem or under engineered brakes, at lest not any worse then other manufactures. What I would say is Toyota didn't mess around with the new Tundra and likely over engineered the brakes this time around.
Mike

[kevinp]

If he is not hauling he is not driving his truck. As for the transmission he flushes the fluid every 40,000 (all of it.) He is getting very close to 300,000 on the engine and transmission. These transmissions generate more heat by not shifting them down. If you question this then put a transmission temperature gage on your truck and watch it. If the theory that the wear and tear has been transferred from the brakes to the transmission then these must be a good transmission. As for the brakes, if they were not under engineered in the first place then why did and does Toyota upgrade them to the tune of $2,000.00 to $3,000.00, now that they are off warranty. This was a mistake by Toyota and to deny that would be to deny 90% of the brake threads on this site. The other factor which I neglected to mention is the fact that these trucks are quiet, smooth and handle fairly well which gives the driver a false sensation of the speed they are traveling. People have a tendency to drive them like a car. Next time you are near a scale, weigh your truck. Notice that it is not a 3000 lb sports car. Yet we have a tendency to drive them like they are. The difference is that we do not put a cord of wood in the back of our car. By the time you add any weight to these trucks they become severely under braked.

[lelandstanford]

I don't see any problem with downshifting for transmission braking. The transmission shifts up and down all the time. Either way it's going to be wear and tear.

The extra heat generated in 1st and 2nd gear (T/C unlocked) only happen when engine is not loaded (little or no combustion) and high RPM (higher cooling fan speed).

The braking force is mostly produced by engine vacuum.

[MEvang]

Transmissions are wear items and the more the shift the more they wear. Good example is the old 2 speed Powerglides which simply never wore out (leak yes), then came three speed that easily went 150k and then came the 4 speed automatics that went about 80 -100k if you where lucky. What has changed in the last 15-20 years is much improved fluids. Now manufactured have gone to 6 speeds that should last 100 -150k.
But down shifting not only wear the trans it wears on the engine also. Rings and cylinder wall wear heavily when compression braking. It also can be hard one rod bearings as it squeeze out the oil film. I have also seen thrust bearings wear heavily on engines that are used this way.
I will admit I do not us overdrive when towing as you get more engine braking. I also switch off overdrive in snow and ice so I can use the engine braking. Normal every day driving I let it shift itself.
Now as far as under sized brakes, here are a few other manufactures that have had the exact same problems as Toyota with brakes maybe being unders sized these vehical have had either cronic pad wear problems, pulsation problems or stopping problems ( now this is only a few I have personally dealt with I'm sure there are many more examples)
Trucks: GM 1/2-3/4 tons 1988 -(not sure of the year they fixed them ) Jeep Cherokees ( I think they are still having problem with these) Ford Rangers and Explores (early ones not sure of the years) Chevy S10 Blazers ( early 90's till they went to 4 wheel disc) Dodge Trucks early ones that used the GM brake sytem. Many years of the Ford F150 to the super duty's these brakes have been had design changes many times.
Toyota upgrade there brakes in 03 and most have very little problems with the upgraded system. You have to also take into account on all these mentioned vehicles that all people drive differently (as exampled by your friend) trucks can be put into a wide variety of driving conditions and when a manufacture doesn't take this into account they can see a lot of complaints.
Then there are mechanic and other poor repair technics. They don't torque wheel when doing maintenance over adjust drum brakes and do other things to create problems. Now a manufactory has to sort through all these created problems to see if there really is a problem.
So is the early Toyota Tundra brakes a big engendering problem, I don't see it that way since the problems with these brakes are quit common across the board. I do think a lot of Toyota for fixing the problem early on, taking care of a great deal of their customer and then making their redesigned truck so much better. Would GM, Ford or Dodge do this, in most cases they do not, only if NHTSA gets involved. Am I singing Toyota praise? Not really. I would have love if they fixed everyone's brakes (including mine). But you have to admit they are doing more then most manufactures.
Mike

[kevinp]

There are people with complaints logging from 3,000mi. to 15,000mi on a set of brakes before they were warped again. At 3000 mi that would be 100 brake jobs in 300,000 miles. At $300 per visit to the Toyota dealer to have the rotors replaced that totals $30,000. I realize this is an extreme case. How is that cheaper than a transmission overhaul every 100,000 miles, if in fact you would cause trans failure by shifting down. That is not even taking into account the wear and tear on front end and other parts from the shaking that occurs with warped rotors. I do not have a owners manual at hand, but I would be extremely surprised if there is not reference to shifting the transmission down when driving in the mountains. Especially when towing. Further more if shifting the automatic transmission down is so detrimental to the engine than an engine with a standard transmission would then have a shorter lifespan than an engine with an automatic. When you are driving a standard transmission in the mountains you are not in 5th gear. So lets just say you are in 3rd gear. when you decelerate you are putting more strain on the engine than an automatic would because there is no slippage from the torque converter. So that would mean a standard trans vehicle would wear out all the parts you mentioned faster than an automatic. That is simply not true. Now I have only been at this a little while, 40 years or so ,including a race car that won at Riverside Ca. and numerous other rock crushing, corner bending, 1/4 mile titles. So, I am really just a novice here, but there are theories being discussed, that while they may make sense to some people, they do not hold up in the real world.

[MEvang]

I'm not saying here that you should never used the engine to slow a vehicles, I'm just saying this is not a good everyday practice. If it works for your friend I'm amazed!
I think it's great if the Toyota trans can take this. Do this with some GM trans and you'll trash it in a heart beat.(No pun intended) I know I've done it and I've seen it done many times and had to have them built to take it. I would say at average most trans in most vehicles are not built to take this as most people don't drive this way. They put in drive and go. Soft shifts are more important to manufactures then manual down shifts.
And yes manual trans engine do tend to wear out faster, this is one of many reason that most work trucks have gone automatic. Guys would simply wear these engine out in no time. I've done work for many company's that now don't trust their drivers with manual transmission. Engine just cost too much. This is the real world.
Are brakes cheaper, sure they are. What does and engine or trans cost, You could do over 100 brakes jobs for the cost of one transmission. I don't know of anyone who has had a 100 brake jobs in 100 K mikes.
Now lets get real here, if the brakes are done properly and maintained properly you shouldn't have a problem. I now have 20K on mine since I updated them, not one problem. I have a friend that bought a 04 new, at 40K I replaced the pads. He sold it at 60k and he never had a problem and he's still had about 20% left on his old pads when we changed them.
So how much of these problems are driver error, how much is mechanic err and how much is a design error?
Here's my point. The brakes are not that much of a problem that your should consider braking with your transmission on a regular basis.
If your towing, and your not overloaded your trailer brakes should help with the load, that's what they are there for.
If you are carrying a load and not overloaded your rear brakes should then be helping with the load.
If your driving overloaded go ahead and down shift, spread the load around is wise.
If your driving down steep mountains, driving in snow or ice, then engine braking is the way to go.
On the other hand If you feel you need to engine brake all the time then I would be looking for a different vehicle.
Mike

[kevinp]

I am curious does a Tundra owners manual say to shift down when driving in the mountains? Is it only when towing? Or does it neglect to say anything about it at all?

[kevinp]

As for other companies Transmissions; GMs turbo 400, Fords C6, and Chryslers 727 were 3 of the strongest transmissions ever built for passenger cars and trucks. They all were mounted in motor homes that weighed as much as 20,000 lbs. I have seen each of them go to 100,000 miles in these applications. All companies have their good and bad days including Toyota.

[kevinp]

This has been a great discussion as other possibilities have arisen and the clear oversight by all the manufacturers would have been an idiot light that came on when your brakes got to a particular temperature. Then instructions in the owners manual that would instruct the driver to shift down and or slow down. With this system we would have taught another generation how to drive. With the new infrared non contact technology this would be a pretty easy addition these days.