2000 Tundra Rear Brakes, Leaking Diff Oil?

[zootjeff]

I'm guessing they say you need to destroy the sensor rotor because it would take longer to grind down the retainer without damaging the sensor ring because it is so close and so much bigger then the retainer..

You can't just un-press the retainer and the sensor ring because the C clip is actually hidden under the sensor rotor and you'd be un-pressing two retainers at the same time, and it might cause the Rotor to deform..

I bet that I could grind down the retainer using an angle grinder for most of it, then a dremmel for the rest of it so that the sensor ring isn't touched..

[MEvang]

Generally, how we would take off these retainers (and bearings), is to cut through them about 3/4 of the way with a cutting torch, throw some rages over the retainer while it's still hot and the whack the retainer in the cut with a large chisel and hammer. The retainer will split and slides right off. Now this may seem a bit excessive but it's fast and effective and I have never seen any ill effects from this technique, when done properly.
On the down side things like ABS rings are usually damaged, if your not skilled with a cutting torch you can cut into the axle, and red hot retainers tend to release metal fragments when hit with a chisel. These can fly off like shrapnel from a bullet and lodge into body parts. (ask me how I know) This is why you throw rags over the hot metal even though they some times catch fire.
Once the retainers and bearings are pressed in place they won't simply press off. Now you can also try heating the retainer and pressing it off, or as you are saying cut it with a cutoff saw. But be aware these things are harden steel and don't cut easily. I suggest cutting through part way and try splitting it as I mentioned above. Becareful and keep it covered, stay safe. Getting steel shrapnel removed is not fun.
Mike

[zootjeff]

So I started to actually go after the inner oil seal.

I took apart the brakes:









Then I pulled the axle on the side that was leaking the most:









Then you can see the retainer, and ABS ring I've been talking about:













What's interesting here is the following:

1. You can notice that there is a groove in the axle under the retainer at the end of the ABS sensor, where the last guy went too far with the grinder to remove the retainer..

2. The ABS sensor is just pressed on, so my other posts where the ABS ring is too big, it is actually because they sent me the wrong part.. I got a 43517-34010 and the 2000 tundra needs the 43517-35010 sensor ring..


I wonder if there is a machine shop that can un-press the sensor. I'm going to look into that this week.

I wonder if the groove in the axle creates a channel for the oil to leak between the retainer, sensor ring, and axle. Or if it is going around the seal.
The seal surface on the retainer looks very smooth. The seal still looks really good compared to my new seals..

I'll start work on the other side..

[zootjeff]

OK,

So I took the other axle out and it has the same problem. The previous Toyota tech did not follow the instructions and ate all the way through the retainer and put a notch in the axle with a grinder. I'm pretty sure this is how all the 90w is getting out and soaking my rear brakes. According to the Toyota service manual you are suppose to do this: "Grind the retainer and sensor rotor surfaces, then chisel them out." The chisel is required so you don't leave any marks on the axle. If you grind the axle and create a channel under the retainer, then you won't have a good seal. I would think that is common sense. But I guess not.

The inner seals on both sides look really good. They look the same as the TSB updated seals that I ordered, but are not the same. This seal replacement was done in 2004.

So, am I looking at new axles? or can I put some of that Copper RTV sealer in that notch and hope for the best?

Either way I think I'm looking at doing the full shebang. I was considering just replacing the seals and hoping for the best with the 20k miles on these bearings.. But seeing how much they wobble, and seeing how saturated they were, and seeing that I have this notch I need to plug and I don't want any 90w on the axle when I go to seal the notch..


Now to figure out if I can save the sensor rotors or not. I'll take it to my machine shop in the morning and see what I'm up against..

-Jeff

[MEvang]

This is very interesting since a lot of people who have had seals replaced have then had a history of further leaks. You are right this cut could be a channel that is allowing the fluid a way around the seal.
As I stated above a unskilled tech can ruin an axle cutting in to it as has been done on yours. You have only two choices now. Replace both axles or take your chances using the RTV sealant and hope for the best.
I think I would try this. Replace all seals, bearings and gaskets and use the RTV under the retainer.
Keep up the great detailed information.
Mike

[zootjeff]

I called the machine shop and told them my situation. They say they sometimes use epoxy to fill gaps in the axle like this one. They can't remove the retainer without destroying it. They said it will be 60 bucks each axle to remove the and put back on the retainers and ABS rings..

I went ahead and ordered two more sensor rings and a 4th retainer through 1sttoyotaparts.com.

[zootjeff]

I'd just like to say how happy I am with the service from "Toyota Parts" - OnlineToyota Parts and Accessories.. I called the machine shop Monday morning, they said they can't save the sensor rotor, so then I placed an order for the two sensor rotors. Anyway, I placed the order at noon Monday, and Today (Tuesday the next day) when I got home from work, there were my two sensor rotors, and my extra retainer. They also seemed to have the lowest prices I could find.. I got my parts in less then 36 hours and I paid for ground fedEx shipping at about $9. Now they came from Washington and I'm in Oregon, so that accounts for ground getting here so fast, but the other online place I tried took 2 weeks to even process my order. Very happy with "Toyota Parts" - OnlineToyota Parts and Accessories. given that I've got a camping trip planned in a few weeks and every weekend counts on this project...

[zootjeff]

So I finally got the rear back together. I went ahead and did the breather mod while I was at it and I replaced the front calipers, so here is a mega-post..

Here are the axles back from the machinist. He replaced the Bearings, outer Seal, outer gasket, Bearing retainer, ABS sensor, and ABS sensor retainer:


Here is the Housing and ABS sensor. This is a magnetic sensor, it induces a magnetic field into the rotor and senses the back-emf from the notches in the rotor. I found that it helped to remove before inserting the seals:


Here is the epoxy on one of the axles:




Here is the other axle with expoxy:




Here are the seals, I went with the Generic seals after destroying two of the Toyota seals. I never did get the hang of it. I used the Harbor freight seal pusher, I got some extra washers and a longer bolt for it. I turned the seal driver piece around so that it was pushing on the outside of the seal. I used RTV sealer and went through 3 seals, two Toyota and one generic until I finally got the hang with the generic and kept them in..






Once the seals were in and greased up, everything else was smooth sailing.. Oh, except for the e-brake lever that attaches to the backing plate. I twisted a screw off trying to tighten it down. So I wound up drilling into the bolt and using a screw extractor and some similar 8mm bolts with the same size head from Ace Hardware.. You can see the silver bolts down by the leaver in the pic, they use to be brass colored.. Here are the rear brakes back together..







Make sure to remember to put the cable in the little catcher, and lube all shoe points that rub on the housing..





I put 80W-90 gear oil in, I had a small pump for a quart bottle that died. I made many trips to Ace hardware and Mikes Auto. The previous Toyota Tech used regular motor oil. I noticed that it was really thin when coming out and really thick going in, so that could have been part of my leak problem..


You can see I also went ahead and did the Breather mod:







A piece of sock became the final pre-filter..



I used 7 feet of 3/8 fuel line. I just used the clamps that came with the fuel filter. Also I didn't cut anything cause the filter came with the little stubs which worked perfect..












So since I did the full rear brake job, I figured I'd start on the Front..



Here were the new pads vs the old.. Seems kinda odd that they don't really take advantage of that extra size (5.3)




I followed Mikes PDF on on the early Tundra upgrade.. One thing I'd really add is a way to remove the old rotors. I tried hitting them with a 2x4, with a rubber hammer, wd-40 on the hub, pulling, nothing would get them off. Then I tried putting the old caliper bolt in without a caliper and used a washer to save the old rotor, then just drove the bolt into the rotor then "Clank" and it was free.



Clamp the brake line..










Front brakes done. I have two springs, but I only used the top ones. I didn't get the shim kit either.. The Monroe pads have basic shims that you can see in this pic. So if I have squealing, I might play with it some more..


All in all I hope I solved the brake problem.

[zootjeff]

In conclusion, here were several issues that I suspect after having seen first hand everything..

1. Over-sized wheels and tires. I switched to the stock alloy rims and tires and it seems like the leak let-up after I did that. They put the load on the bearings slightly differently. I wanted the smaller wheels anyway for more towing torque..
2. Notched axles under the retainers. This I think was my smoking gun. The machinist said that one axle the notch was all the way past the retainer and the sensor ring, but the other one wasn't. He also was trying to cover his rear by telling me it might not work and the best thing would be a brand new axle. If you have your retainer replaced by toyota, show them this post and make sure their tech removes them properly.
3. ~30W motor oil in the differential housing. This was probably just feeding the fire, I bet it would have slowed down if I'd put 90w in. I didn't even think that the service department was that messed up... Toyota "Walnut Creek" on Broadway in California seems to have issues with doing successful axle seal work. They fixed a faulty seal but beat the hell out of everything else..
4. Random Seal installed. They didn't use the original seal, they didn't use the TSB specified seal, they used some other seal. I didn't use the TSB seal, I used a generic seal, I hope I didn't shoot myself in the foot, but these seels seemed heavier duty anyway and hugged the retainer a little better. I also lubed them up with white grease and RVT'ed them in... Fingers crossed.
5. Breather. It is possible my breather didn't work right and pressue built up, it was extra insurance, but probably not the problem.


All in all this was rewarding work. I have an 8 month old son so having my wife watch him full time while I try to do this all weekend took a bit of a toll on us. Now we have a full brake job and it was about 600 bucks. The dealer probably would have charged me 2000 bucks for this, and screwed it up.

I'd like to thank Mike (MEvang) for his countless replies to my posts and for providing the non-mechanic Electrical Engineer dude helpful advice over and over..

[MEvang]

Jeff,
Your thread here has turned out great so I made it a sticky in the brake forum.
A few words of caution. The way you used the bolt to remover the rotor is clever, but you must be very careful doing this. It is very possible to bend the caliper mounting ears. If these were to get bent I wouldn't recommenced trying to bend them back. This being cast the metal is likely to crack and the upright would need to be replaced.
On the other hand I have seen this happen while beating rotors off with a hammer. I have seen the ears get fit by mistake and get bent. Just a word of caution. If you try this watch the ear carefully if you see it move at all stop before it bends.
Now on you vent. Diffs need to breath, as the fluid get hot it expanse quit a bit. If it can't push out the air it will push out a seal. I would be concerned with the filter and all of that, it may have a hard time breathing through this. Chevy's and Fords use an open vent with a cap hat. On 4 wheel drive this is mount high on a hose as you have done. These are plastic and you can get them from Dorman or Motormite (Called Trans Case Vents) part # 14689. I would think your better off just using one of these and dropping the filters.
Good job!
Mike

[adm]

i have had the leaking diff problem, replaced bearings and seals, a year later same problem returned.....replaced bearings and seals again, then it dawned on me, to check the diff vent. took it off and found that it was pluged solid, took it apart cleaned it reinstalled it. has been ok ever since. so guys check your bleaders b4 spending hundreds of dollars unnessicarily.

[zootjeff]

Thanks for the comments!! Mike, on the breather, do you think I could just omit the fuel filter and use the piece of sock at the end of the tube, or should I spring for that plastic piece?

Went on a 200 mile trip this last weekend with the new brakes and seals. On the way down the rear brakes seemed a little hot at one point, but didn't smell like the burning oil.. The new brakes front and rear worked great. Then when I got home was the moment of truth. With the truck in drive, pointed down a slope in front of my house, with the travel trailer attached, the e-brake held the whole rig! Victory! I'll have to wait and see in a few thousand miles if that's still the case..

-Jeff

[Tundranger]

Great post, guys! My 2002 Tundra has the same problem. Are there any differences between the 2000 model and my '02.

Thanks

[MEvang]

The only differences is without ABS you won't have the sensor ring.
Mike

[djosephm]

I just had my rear bearings replaced and noticed both of my rear axles were leaking oil... I took the truck back to the shop and they found out that toyota sent them the wrong parts. Toyota sent them a locker that was w/o abs but I had abs and there was a few mm difference in the two parts and thats how oil was leaking on both sides.

I put a bout 1k miles on the truck as it was leaking... Do you think the bearings are still fine or are they flushed, because as far as I can tell the shop I took it to just replaced the lockers (not sure about the seals) and the breakpads should also be replaced... but my main concern right now is the bearings... do you think my new bearings are already shot and will cause me problems or are they probably ok...

Thanks

Dan