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Old 10-13-2004, 02:40 PM
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Default Problem with Front Brake TSB

An interesting and scary problem presented itself yesterday...

My wife and I had the front brake TSB done on our 2001 Sequoia in late November, 2003. Yesterday, while backing out of a parking space, the right front wheel fell off!!! When she called and told me this… I initially thought that maybe Costco didn’t tighten the lug nuts when they last rotated the tires. When I got there… the real situation presented itself.

The wheel was collapsed up into the wheel well at an extreme angle… with the lugs and wheel still attached to the rotor and hub. My thoughts immediately shifted to the TSB. Upon jacking the truck up and removing the wheel, the real problem became apparent… the lower ball joint unit had separated from the spindle. Closer inspection revealed that of the 4 bolts that fasten the two pieces together, 2 were missing all together… the other 2 sheared off while backing up and we found them in the parking lot. Scary… if it had happened 5 minutes later… my wife would have been on the highway going 60 MPH.

The dealership is currently evaluating the situation. They have yet to admit any fault… even though they were the last ones to touch those 4 bolts (the TSB clearly shows these bolts were removed in the procedure). Advice on what I should do? Anyone else have this problem? My wife is now scared to drive it.

If anyone wants to check their vehicle… I will post a picture of the failure later today.

Many thanks,

Rich
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Old 10-13-2004, 03:35 PM
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Wow very scary thought... I have a hard time trusting anyones work done on my vehicle especially the wheels which are very important factors which determines life or death. Everyone should check and recheck everything if all possible.
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Old 10-13-2004, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mase
Advice on what I should do? Anyone else have this problem? My wife is now scared to drive it.
Hire a lawyer!
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:21 PM
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My genetic distrust of anyone else who works on my vehicle forced me to check all work completed after my TSB brake upgrade - found these same 4 cap screws to be WAY out of wack - some loose, some way overtight.

Removed, cleaned, re-installed and torqued all of 'em to spec. Doesn't hurt to clean the mating surface and locating pins between the spindle and the lower ball joint unit either - apparently not standard practice to do this during the TSB ;-(

Darned paranoia - it's been 6 months, I better go and recheck my work!

Glad this at least happened to you at low speed, all are OK.

P
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Old 10-13-2004, 10:33 PM
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Knowing OEM friction material was the cause of rotor warping and the possibility of even bigger problem after the TSB is performed, I replaced the pads out of my own pocket before they were worn.

$43 for PFC CM pads or $33 for Wagner ceramic was a small price to pay not to mention lifetime wearout warranty.
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Old 10-14-2004, 12:43 AM
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Nobody was hurt as the wheel fell off only 5 feet from the curb as my wife was backing up.

The dealership (Boulder Toyota) called today and told my wife that the bolts "cracked" and that is what caused the failure. They were turning the case over to Toyota. We'll see what happens tomorrow...

Here are some pictures of the failure:








-Rich Mason
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Old 10-14-2004, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
The dealership ... called today and told my wife that the bolts "cracked" and that is what caused the failure.
Once again my feeble grasp of physics has been enhanced by larger minds . . .

Since when do "cracked" bolts unthread themselves from the spindle? (your picture clearly shows intact threads in the spindle) The high stress shear point for an overloaded or faulty bolt would surely be at the joint between spindle and ball joint ***'ly? No? (leaving the stub of the bolt in the spindle)

My laymans grasp of physics suggests:

1 or more bolts FELL OUT and the remaining bolts failed due to extreme stress induced as the joint loosened . . .

Per your attached pic I'd say the left bolt fell out (rust on bolt head mating surface, rust inside at part junction) and the right bolt did indeed fail (no rust at mating surface)

If the bolts indeed cracked in place will there be a TSB for the TSB? Perhaps we all need new bolts to replace the old ones that clearly cannot be re-used?

Dealers always make me laugh!

P

Last edited by pcosens; 08-21-2007 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 10-17-2004, 11:45 PM
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Well… the Sequoia is repaired. Here’s what they did:

-Ordered 8 new bolts for both front wheel assemblies
-Added Heli-coils to the spindle brackets and fastened everything together using Loc-Tite
-Re-Aligned the truck

We had a meeting Friday with the dealership's General Manager and the Service Manager. Basically they were very apologetic and open to hearing us out. My wife related to them that she was very scared to drive the vehicle. We told them if we decided to keep the truck, we would like to have an extended warranty added to cover the cost of future inspections. It sounded like they would be able to make that happen. We also told them that if we didn't feel comfortable with it, that we would like it replaced. The GM basically agreed to check into that option and see what he could do. He was going to check with Toyota to see if they could contribute since in their minds fault could not be accurately determined.

I'll know more by the end of the day Monday.

-Rich
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Old 10-18-2004, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mase
Well… the Sequoia is repaired. Here’s what they did:

-Ordered 8 new bolts for both front wheel assemblies
-Added Heli-coils to the spindle brackets and fastened everything together using Loc-Tite
-Re-Aligned the truck

We had a meeting Friday with the dealership's General Manager and the Service Manager. Basically they were very apologetic and open to hearing us out. My wife related to them that she was very scared to drive the vehicle. We told them if we decided to keep the truck, we would like to have an extended warranty added to cover the cost of future inspections. It sounded like they would be able to make that happen. We also told them that if we didn't feel comfortable with it, that we would like it replaced. The GM basically agreed to check into that option and see what he could do. He was going to check with Toyota to see if they could contribute since in their minds fault could not be accurately determined.

I'll know more by the end of the day Monday.

-Rich
They added a Heli-Coil? I would not feel that comfortable with that setup. That is sorta like a band-aid IMHO. That means the thread were stripped or wallered out and it had to be drilled and tapped oversized then they thread in the coil to make new threads. HHHMMMM.........

Mitch
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Old 10-18-2004, 11:40 AM
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Thumbs down Heli Coils!!!

I would be suspect as well if they are using Heli-coils to repair. I have used these before on my '80 celica to repair the stripped-out holes in the aluminum cylinder head where the exhuast manifold bolts on.
The heli-coils seemed to hold tight for me, but I have heard stories of them backing out and failing.
They are simply a cheap way to repair a stripped out bolt hole without having to replace the part. They require boring out the old hole to a larger size and re-tapping the hole to fit the heli-coil so that the original bolt size can be used.
I would very strongly argue that they replace the part with the stripped bolt holes and forget about the heli-coils. It wouldn't be such a big deal if this wasn't a critical part, but I would hate to be that dealer if those heli-coils ever fail while your wife was doing 60mph on the highway. They would have some serious explaining to do as to why they compromized the integrity of that mounting point with heli-coils.
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Old 10-18-2004, 11:15 PM
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OMFG---I CANNOT BELIEVE WHAT I AM READING.

1) the dealership should be glad your wife is alive.

2) the tech that did the work needs to find a new job.

3) you need to contact toyota corporate if you have not done so already and report the problem yourself, including everyone youve spoken with, the tech that performed the work and the service manager. go directly over the dealership's head or they will try to worm out of this...boulder toyota is a "5-star" dealership, i doubt they want this on their hands, unless you pin it to them. they need to own up, that's what a 5-star does...im frankly amazed this happened there. i bought my truck there, theyve performed several critical repairs to it, every one top notch quality, this seems unlike them.

4) the spindle needs to be completely replaced--a helicoil is NOT acceptable. your lives are riding on this, the front suspension is one of the MOST critical systems on the vehicle. the upper ball joint should probably be replaced as well as it's possible the joint was shock loaded at maximum angle when the system failed...see my picture gallery for a picture of the upper ball joint exposed. if the upper ball joint was damaged at all, you may see a repeat of this incident but from the upper end, and probably right when you need it, ie during emergency braking when the upper ball joint sees the most shear load.

5) if i were still in boulder, i'd go find the tech that did this and call the !$%#er out for you. whoever did it needs to find work somewhere else. seriously now...those threads are DRY. no anti-sieze, no thread lock, not even anything like chassis grease, they were dry-f@#$ed when they were reinstalled, and if two sheared and two fell out, they definately weren't evenly torqued to 59 ft-lbs. that's not 5-star service, that's sloppy, and it could have got your wife killed. the mounting surfaces don't even look like they were hit with a rag, much less cleaned properly. the small cylinder in the bottom photo belongs in the steering knuckle, that it was forced free during the catastrophic failure suggests a great deal of force applied in all the wrong ways to that cylinder; its retaining hole may be deformed at this point, and that cylinder is a critical locating device for the four fasteners (fancy term for "bolts") that secure the spindle to the knuckle. go to www.pirate4x4.com, click to the tech department, and read billavista's steering articles...he talks about what fasteners are intended to do--basically the load is supposed to be borne by the interface between the spindle and steering knuckle, not the bolts...the bolts just provide the clamping force. that is basic engineering. whoever performed the tsb on your truck was cutting corners...i'd push awful hard for new parts, to include everything the jackass took apart and then potentially reassembled incorrectly. sweet jeezus, make sure the bolts holding the brake calipers to the spindle are torqued properly...90 ft-lbs iirc, with thread lock. those four bolts in the picture are plenty strong for what they do, tho i am sure with a breaker bar i could shear every one in half. i seriously doubt they were "defective" bolts, it's just that more was asked of them than they were capable of sustaining, as they were installed improperly. if they were overtightened, the two broken bolts may have already been plastically deformed or even partially separated; if undertightened, two bolts were asked to do the job of four, potentially under improper circumstances ie trying to resist shear through a loose bolt rather than fastening the surfaces together as the engineers intended.

6) there are a couple guys there who i know do good work. there used to be a guy named mike, who ran the blue group. just a suggestion, but maybe push for him to do the work...he seems trustworthy and really knows his stuff.

this isnt even my truck and i'm just about hopping mad. if it were my truck, i'd be all the way beyond pissed...i'd be CALM, and somebody would be up to their eyes in...well...you know...

i really hope this works out for you one way or another. i'm just amazed that this would happen to a vehicle that was serviced at boulder toyota. they replaced my steering rack, front differential, did the the towing harness tsb, replaced numerous parts on aj's truck, all done very well and without problems down the road (except for one minor issue with my a.d.d. unit, but i have no idea who was actually responsible...dealership or previous owner). i know they can do better than helicoils...apologies are soothing, but they dont get the job done.

good luck rich, they need to own up and address the affected parts. if they don't, talk to corporate, and if corporate doesn't budge, i believe someone had a good suggestion a few posts earlier in the thread.

-sean
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