Tundra Brake TSB

[mustang67408]

nj1266:

Why do you think toyota finally wised up and redesigned the whole front brake assmebly? Because they knew that rotos do not warp. They knew that the brake pistons were too small in diameter. They knew that this was overheating the pads and transfering brake material un-evenly to the rotors causing the warp feeling.

Your 1/2 right, the brakes were to small and building excessive heat. The pads were transferring that HEAT(not pad material) to the rotors. This is what is causing the pulsation feeling. Every rotor I have machined has been wraped .003" or more, and YES I measure evey single one.
The pads when they get hot release their material due to friction and some of it may end up on the rotor,but not enough for anything for you to feel, most of it ends up on your WHEELS. Ever wonder why they are always so dirty? ASK around here, many people complain of BRAKE DUST.
When Toyota updated their brakes thru the BRAKE TSB. They did make bigger calipers and pads for that reason, BUT what most people dont see is the redesigned BACKING PLATE. It has a bigger SCOOP on it to bring in cooler air the help keep the rotors cooler and keep down the warping to a minimum, from excessive HEAT.

The main reason ALL brake pads have more problems these days, is due to the EPA.
The EPA has mandated the removal of asbestos from brake pads. (ITS CANCE causing). So with the best heat disipating material around, they had to use other stuff that just doesnt work as well. (ie. porcelean, brass, other metals, graphite)
Semi-Metallic brake pads incorporate a formula that utilizes approximately 40% or more metal content by weight.

THIS IS FROM THE EPA directly:
Each time you step on your car's brakes, small amounts of debris, including metal such as copper, are RELEASED onto streets and into waterways. Dissolved copper is toxic to phytoplankton, the base of the aquatic food chain. Drivers in the United States press on their brakes billions of times a day, which could have a potentially harmful impact on the environment.
When disc brakes are applied to a moving vehicle, a portion of the pad rubs off in the form of dust
and enters the environment.
I trust the EPA & TOYOTA more than Caroll Smith.<---(who?)
Besides in his article he said you cant see the build up. So if I can measure the warpage and cant see the build up, which do you think people are gonna think is the problem?
Have a great weekend!!!!

[nj1266]

Originally Posted by mustang67408

nj1266:

Your 1/2 right, the brakes were to small and building excessive heat. The pads were transferring that HEAT(not pad material) to the rotors. This is what is causing the pulsation feeling. Every rotor I have machined has been wraped .003" or more, and YES I measure evey single one.
The pads when they get hot release their material due to friction and some of it may end up on the rotor,but not enough for anything for you to feel, most of it ends up on your WHEELS. Ever wonder why they are always so dirty? ASK around here, many people complain of BRAKE DUST.
When Toyota updated their brakes thru the BRAKE TSB. They did make bigger calipers and pads for that reason, BUT what most people dont see is the redesigned BACKING PLATE. It has a bigger SCOOP on it to bring in cooler air the help keep the rotors cooler and keep down the warping to a minimum, from excessive HEAT.

The main reason ALL brake pads have more problems these days, is due to the EPA.
The EPA has mandated the removal of asbestos from brake pads. (ITS CANCE causing). So with the best heat disipating material around, they had to use other stuff that just doesnt work as well. (ie. porcelean, brass, other metals, graphite)
Semi-Metallic brake pads incorporate a formula that utilizes approximately 40% or more metal content by weight.

THIS IS FROM THE EPA directly:
Each time you step on your car's brakes, small amounts of debris, including metal such as copper, are RELEASED onto streets and into waterways. Dissolved copper is toxic to phytoplankton, the base of the aquatic food chain. Drivers in the United States press on their brakes billions of times a day, which could have a potentially harmful impact on the environment.
When disc brakes are applied to a moving vehicle, a portion of the pad rubs off in the form of dust
and enters the environment.
I trust the EPA & TOYOTA more than Caroll Smith.<---(who?)
Besides in his article he said you cant see the build up. So if I can measure the warpage and cant see the build up, which do you think people are gonna think is the problem?
Have a great weekend!!!!

I am sorry, but I am not convinced. I used to believe the old wife's tale of rotors warpping until I did my research and talked to a Nissan engineer who specifically told me NOT to turn my rotors. I race with the guy and I trust him when it comes to cars. He has raced in SCCA, IMSA and currently races with me in NASA.

I remember once while racing on Axis Ultimate brake pads (a combo street/track pad), I overheated the pad and came off the track with the warpped feeling. I looked and saw brake material FUSED on certain parts of the rotor. So I switched pads and ran Hawk Blues (higher cooeficient of friction that does not ever overheat). Went out to the track and in three laps the warp feeling was gone. Why? The Hawk Blues "cleaned" the Axis pad material off the rotor. It is the same as taking the rotor off the car and sanding it down.

Another instance was when my brother took his street car to the track. He was running stock pads and after a while he got the warpped feeling. He thought it was the rotors. I told him to get new stock pads and he will be ok. He did and the warpped feeling was gone. In this instance the pads got warpped and overheated.

In over 5 years of racing/hotlapping. I have yet to see a warpped rotor when using a proper brake pad. I have seen warpped brake pads, cracked rotors, but I have not seen warpped brake rotors.

[mustang67408]

The last set of rotors that I turned, needed .022" removed from them before they cleaned up? So, your saying that is .022" pad material on the rotor?
The pads were not that far worn from stock. It was a newer Tundra with 7k miles or so on it. The guy claimed that when coming down the mountain he began to notice the pulsation. Stock pads measure out at 10mm, this truck had less than .04mm pad removed from the surface.(yes I measured, we have to measure all brake pad thicknesses) I dont understand how invisable pad material can cause such a huge problem.
I will say i do understand now the brake pad material can transfer to the rotor, but

CHEVY HIGH PERFORMANCE MAG SAID: . Most, if not all high-performance disc brake pads are designed to work with a transfer film on the rotor surface. Created during the pad bedding procedure, this layer of friction material serves a number of purposes: it makes for a better mating surface for the pad, improves pedal response and braking consistency, and even acts as a buffer between pad and rotor, allowing it to wear longer and more evenly

Many brake pad manufacturers want the rotors coated with brake pads(bedding)Some pads come pre-burnished, the manufacturer has baked the pad to drive off the organics and cure the bonding agents. These pads don't need to be bedded, but it won't hurt anything if you do it anyway, bedding also helps to carbon-load the rotor surface, improving brake effectiveness.
, so I am confused as to why this cause a problem. I also think the rotors are warping, due to the excessive heat and expansion and contraction cycles, or going thru water when they are hot. I have seen rotors that cant be trued even after .100", we just end up replacing them when they go under the min. spec
Anyway doesnt really matter, my brakes work just fine
Sure am glad this is a free country.
That makes both our opinions correct.
I am not 100% convinced either, will have to mull it over this weekend.
Have a great weekend.

[bob259]

Originally Posted by mustang67408

Sure am glad this is a free country.
That makes both our opinions correct.
I am not 100% convinced either, will have to mull it over this weekend.
Have a great weekend.

Victor,
I'm with you. I've worked on brakes for a long time and turned many a rotor and I know warped and material on the surface. Yes you CAN have either situation, I have seen them both, but the majority have been WARPED. Also having worked in racing for many a year in Champ Cars, NASCAR, F1 and local tracks I can tell you racing pads and rotors are far different from passenger car materials.

I've sat back amused and listened for awhile and just had to add 2 cents.....

[mustang67408]

Glad to see I'm not the only 1 who thinks this way. I have come to the conclusion like you said, it CAN happen either condition, but most of the stuff we see is warped rotors.
I am not into the racing scene much,BUT
The cars we build & race use PARACHUTES TO STOP.
I agree racing pads and rotors are very different than stock parts.
Thanx for your .02
Its so nice tobe able to talk to alot of people and get lots of opinions
Thats what makes TS.COM so great!

[nj1266]

Originally Posted by bob259

Victor,
I'm with you. I've worked on brakes for a long time and turned many a rotor and I know warped and material on the surface. Yes you CAN have either situation, I have seen them both, but the majority have been WARPED. Also having worked in racing for many a year in Champ Cars, NASCAR, F1 and local tracks I can tell you racing pads and rotors are far different from passenger car materials.

I've sat back amused and listened for awhile and just had to add 2 cents.....

Good for you. Keep believing in the old wife's tale What were you doing in racing? Where you actually racing? Where you a mechanic? Just curious.

This clearly explains what you guys call warpping

http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq25.htm

http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq26.htm

As you can see after market brake maker StopTech does not believe in warpped rotors. In the second link, they tell you that turning the rotor is an option to remove un-even pad material, but that will destroy your rotor's rigidity. The better option is to run an aggressive pad that will clean the rotor.

[lunagr]

Originally Posted by nj1266

...This clearly explains what you guys call warpping

http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq25.htm

http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq26.htm

As you can see after market brake maker StopTech does not believe in warpped rotors. In the second link, they tell you that turning the rotor is an option to remove un-even pad material, but that will destroy your rotor's rigidity. The better option is to run an aggressive pad that will clean the rotor.

On this link Stoptech states, essentially, that warping never happens:

"- I have never seen a warped brake disc. I have seen lots of cracked discs, (FIGURE 1) discs that had turned into shallow cones at operating temperature because they were mounted rigidly to their attachment bells or top hats, (FIGURE 2) a few where the friction surface had collapsed in the area between straight radial interior vanes, (FIGURE 3) and an untold number of discs with pad material unevenly deposited on the friction surfaces - sometimes visible and more often not. (FIGURE 4)

In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures."

I have a VERY hard time believing that there has never been a warped rotor since the disc brake was invented. One must be very careful when speaking in "absolutes".

Originally Posted by nj1266

...In the second link, they tell you that turning the rotor is an option to remove un-even pad material, but that will destroy your rotor's rigidity. The better option is to run an aggressive pad that will clean the rotor.

If turning the rotor to remove the un-even pad material destroys the rigidity, wouldn't the rotor have been "un-rigid" before? Scrubbing the material off with aggressive pads doesn't allow any control of the amount of material being taken off but somehow this is safer than in a machine shop where one has very fine control? (Stoptech adds one caveat to this theory "A WARNING: Do not leave an abrasive pad in the caliper longer than necessary to solve the problem. We have had rotors destroyed in under a week by leaving the abrasive track pads in on the street.")

This isn't making sense to me yet...

"Cornfused"

[bob259]

Originally Posted by nj1266

Good for you. Keep believing in the old wife's tale What were you doing in racing? Where you actually racing? Where you a mechanic? Just curious.

This clearly explains what you guys call warpping

http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq25.htm

http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq26.htm

As you can see after market brake maker StopTech does not believe in warpped rotors. In the second link, they tell you that turning the rotor is an option to remove un-even pad material, but that will destroy your rotor's rigidity. The better option is to run an aggressive pad that will clean the rotor.

Raced & drove Super modified's and was a mechanic or technical inspector in the rest. Reread your StopTech article closely. The key in thier article is "...With one qualifier, presuming that the hub and wheel flange are flat and in good condition and that the wheel bolts or hat mounting hardware is in good condition, installed correctly and tightened uniformly and in the correct order to the recommended torque specification....

This does NOT happen, in I would guess, 95% of passenger car / light truck situtations. That's one reason, even with the old brake design, why I don't have any brake problems with my truck, or for that matter with any vehicle I've owned. There are very few people, or tire shop and dealerships for that matter, that take the time to properly torque the wheel nuts. Seeing you say you race, how many under inflated or over inlfated tires do you see when yor driving down the road. If they can't be bothered to check their tire pressures weekly do you think they will take the extra time to torque the wheel nuts.

So in a nut shell, if everything is PERFECT and done to spec you probably will not see many warped rotors, however in the real world you do because no one takes the time to do it to spec. Heck I've seen tire shops ruin wheels by running the nuts up with an impact at full speed/power, just that will warp the rotors when cold as you tighen them out of sequence and drawing them down like that.

I think we have killed this topic.....

[DAVEY]

Hi,I have had 3 sets of brakes and still have the high speed stop vibrations and my dealer (Freehold Toyots) says thats its my problem and not theirs becase there is no recalls on this problem? Does anybody have a tsb number so i can print it out and send them the TSB? Thanks,Davey.My e mail is lsmagpie@aol.com Please e mail if possible

[mitchr]

Originally Posted by DAVEY

Hi,I have had 3 sets of brakes and still have the high speed stop vibrations and my dealer (Freehold Toyots) says thats its my problem and not theirs becase there is no recalls on this problem? Does anybody have a tsb number so i can print it out and send them the TSB? Thanks,Davey.My e mail is lsmagpie@aol.com Please e mail if possible

What year is your Tundra? Depending on the year of your Tundra whether or not there are TSB's for it.

[nhparrot]

Originally Posted by DAVEY

Hi,I have had 3 sets of brakes and still have the high speed stop vibrations and my dealer (Freehold Toyots) says thats its my problem and not theirs becase there is no recalls on this problem? Does anybody have a tsb number so i can print it out and send them the TSB? Thanks,Davey.My e mail is lsmagpie@aol.com Please e mail if possible

Refer to the thread Technical Service Bulletins Database on TundraSolutions.com

[DAVEY]

Sorry,My Tundra is a 2000 ecess cab 4x4 with 75,000 miles. Thanks,Davey

[Dude Boy]

Originally Posted by nj1266

As I said before, I trust Caroll Smith more than you. I do not have the warpped rotor feeling on my Tundra. I took my truck and had the TSB that replaces the entire brake assembly done. I did not even have it before the TSB. I did it for peace of mind.

Aren't you the one who keeps arguing that your engine is defective because of the clicking on start-up? Your engine does not burn oil, does not click when warm, yet you still believe that something is wrong. How many miles do you havve on your truck? Some people have 100K on their Tundras and have that clicking and nothing has happened. No offense, but why should I believe you?

Yes, that would be me! I'm still here living in the real world of warped rotors and piston slap. As you gain automotive experience of your own, you'll probably learn to check runout on rotors and recognize piston slap when you hear it. Also, you should know that Toyota does not have a policy of performing TSB's on vehicles unless there is a valid customer complaint. What was the nature of the complaint on your vehicle? In your case, they probably wanted to see you out the door as soon as possible, so made an exception. No offense !

[PXLpainter]

If you have had problems with a dealer not honoring the TSB (or recommending it before your warranty is up) then call the Toyota Customer Satisfaction line 800-331-4331 and talk to someone about your experience. They may be able to still help you! I have a 2001 with over 46K on it and they're taking care of mine today (FINALLY!)

Good luck!

Jeff

[Rayoto]

[quote=MTTUNDRA;69821]I'm a little lost here about how a TSB works. Can anyone fill me in? I've got a 2000 with about 41,000 miles on it, no more warranty, and my brakes suck also. So does this mean I can go down to my local dealer, have them fix my brakes and have Toyota pay the tab?


Just got off the phone w/ my Yota Dealer. They say that an out of warranty vehicle is exactly that, out of warranty. The TSB is simply for the techs to be aware of a problem and how to resolve the issue. BTW he asked me how many miles I had (75k) and said I should just come in a get a brake job. I can not post what I responed with. Had I not been informed from this forum I might have done it. Thanks guys.