Front drive line noise and vibration

[Marlin Wonders]

I own a 2002 Tundra SR 5 std. cab 4WD truck that I purchased new. Almost from the start I was getting a pulsating thrumming-vibration noise coming from the front drive line. It starts at 25 MPH and stops at approximately 45 MPH. It is loudest at about 35 MPH. It only occurs when driving in 2WD, and stops whenever 4 WD is engaged. The noise and vibration feels like you are driving over a series of cracks in the road.

I have taken it to the Toyota dealer 3 times for repair. They changed the transfer case but it did not help. The last time I had it in the shop the Toyota tech rep was there and checked out the problem. Here is what he did to the vehicle quoting from the work order
“I isolated fwd drive shaft, test drove vehicle, sound was gone Then I removed clamp, sound returned No fix available at this time. Toyota is aware. The front diff fluid is windmilling the forward shaft. This creates a harmonic distortion felt and heard in vehicle.”

After many calls, e-mails and letters to Toyota, they told me that all I could do was to file Arbitration. I filed my case and it went to a hearing , Toyota filed their report stating that the problem had no affect on the use, value or safety of the vehicle. The also had the gull to say that this condition is a characteristic of the vehicle…The arbitrators ruled in favor of Toyota. I have had the Tundra to two dealers and have talked to many Tundra owners and no one had ever experienced this problem.

Has any one out there ever experienced this problem on their Tundras. Except for the noise, I like everything about the truck. But to buy a new vehicle and have to put up with the noise is frustrating

[arkie6]

Originally posted by Marlin Wonders
...Has any one out there ever experienced this problem on their Tundras. ..

Yes, although for some reason, I've never seen the problem mentioned on a 2000 model. Something must be different between the 2000 and later model front differentials. Use the search feature on the site and look for "vibration".

[TundraFreak]

I feel your pain. Although I have not had a similar problem with my Tundra, the service I have received from Toyota over the years and with five different models has been extremely poor. Frankly, they suck. I keep buying because for the most part things don't go wrong, but I have noticed that with every newer model I have bought the quality gets poorer and poorer.

I don't know what to tell you except to take it to the next step. You might try contacting NHTSA to see if they have any similar complaints. Have you talked to a district representative from Toyota?

Good luck.

[redbaron224]

Originally posted by arkie6
Yes, although for some reason, I've never seen the problem mentioned on a 2000 model. Something must be different between the 2000 and later model front differentials. Use the search feature on the site and look for "vibration".

I have the same but not as extreme condition. Noticed it most in the last few weeks since it has gotten cold here. I've got a lot of miles though, maybe it's "loosened up" a bit.

[Herb]

Marlin:

Scroll down in this forum to the "Funny Vibrations - can't diagnose" thread on page 2.

You aren't alone. My 2002 4x4 had a very noticeable vibration such as you described, but no noise, and it surfaced on the predelivery test drive. New tires solved that problem. I also test drove an identical 02 4x4 that had 52K on the odometer and a set of almost worn out Bridgestone Deuler A/T tires (same as my replacement tires) and there was no hint of any sort of vibration.

Just to be on the safe side, I changed the front differential oil to Mobil 1 synthetic 75W90 at 600 miles. Considering how the differential operates in 2 wd, it just seemed like a smart move and the sooner the better. Since it only takes 1.2 quarts and a few minutes time, I intend to change the oil annually.

If you can't get any assistance from Toyota, and you obviously can't, consider taking it to a good private shop. The Ford F150 4x4 has a somewhat similar front differential arrangement. A good Ford truck center may be able to at least shed some light on your problem.

What I discovered, much to my dismay, was that the local Toyota dealer (the only one in a 125 mile radius) has no idea how the front differential or any portion of the front wheel drive system works. Good Luck.

Herb

[scott mcquillan]

I am experiencing the same problem. My 02 limited (3,000 miles)starts to vibrate/hum at 32 mph and stops at 40 mph. I have had it into the dealer and have been told they can do nothing for me as this is a normal operating characteristic of this truck. What a bunch of crap. I have test driven an 03 and it seems as smooth as silk, no vibrations or humming whatsoever. The dealers response to this was "well if it is not doing it now it will". I love the truck but the noise and vibration between 32 - 40 mph is awfull. Like you stated, it dissappears when the 4WD is activated. I am hoping someone or Toyota comes up with a fix. Has anyone noticed it goes away after it is well broke in?? Or will we be cursed with this for the life of the truck?

[Herb]

Scott:

I agree -- a bunch of crap. Only an idiot would market a truck that suffers from front end vibration and expect to succeed.

Take a look at your tires. If you see the word DUNLOP that is most likely the problem.

Have your front alignment checked and adjusted if necessary on a Hunter with a Camm display. Don't let the dealer do this. Rebalance all the tires and put the front tires on the back. Have the shop check your wheels and tires for lateral and radial runout. See if this helps. If not, inflate the tires to about 35psi front and rear. If this makes a difference, get rid of the tires.

Herb

[scott mcquillan]

Herb:

Thanks for the input. Tires are B.F.Goodrich, but I think I will take your advice on the alignment and see what comes of it. I will post a message with results when done. Hay, if this alignment thing works it will make alot of owners happy, and we can tell the dealers to stop blowing smoke and look into these complaints a bit further.
Also door sticker calls for 26psi front and 29psi rear. To me 26psi seems a bit on the low side. Underinflated tires create more heat and I was always under the assumption this is not good. I have been running at 29 both front and rear. What are your thoughts on Toyota's pressure recommendations?

Thanks, Scott

[redbaron224]

Originally posted by scott mcquillan
Herb: Also door sticker calls for 26psi front and 29psi rear. To me 26psi seems a bit on the low side. Underinflated tires create more heat and I was always under the assumption this is not good. I have been running at 29 both front and rear. What are your thoughts on Toyota's pressure recommendations?

Thanks, Scott

I run 35 PSI (45 PSI rear when towing the travel trailer) on all four corners with BFG AT KO 265/75's. The tire placard on the door jamb is definitely too soft for BFG's. You'll have excessive shoulder wear and reduced fuel economy. Also, note that extreme temperature differentials will impact the tire pressure. I have to add more air in the winter time, especially when we visit Michigan in December.

[Herb]

Scott:

Scroll down in this forum to page 4 and look for the thread Funny Vibration - Can't Diagnose where I mentioned in some detail what I experienced during a predelivery test drive of a new 02 4x4.

What I didn't mention, if memory serves me correctly, is that I drove an identical used 01 4x4 that had 52K on the odometer and a well-worn set of Bridgestone Dueler A/T tires. Both trucks were test driven on the same road at the same speed (35mph). The used truck performed flawlessly. My new truck had a hell of a vibration coming out of the front end which would be more correctly called "front end shimmy" or "steering wheel shimmy". Some would call it "vibration".

Had the alignment checked at a Michelin dealer -- all okay. Then I replaced the tires (Dunlops) with Bridgestone Dueler A/Ts. The vibration disappeared and it hasn't returned.

My truck came with Dunlop Grandtrek AT21 tires which call for a max inflation pressure of 51 psi. They offered a cushy ride at 26 front, 29 rear but handling was mushy and imprecise plus the vibration. The new tires were the fix.

The Bridgestone tires call for a max inflation pressure of 44 psi. I run 35 psi front and rear with no load in the bed and the ride is just as good. Handling and vehicle stability are much improved. If I have an occasion to carry a heavy load in the bed, I intend inflate the rear tires to max and leave the front tires at 35. That's what you have to do -- run max pressure in the rear tires at max vehicle weight and a lesser pressure when carrying no load. Generally, you leave the front tire inflation pressure alone, at least I do. If I hit some icy roads, I may reduce the pressure front and rear pressures to 30 psi temporarily.

I drive the Tundra one or two days a week. The rest of the time it sits in the garage. It had been in the teens for several days when I took off in the Tundra and noticed that the tires were incredibly stiff. There was no hint of vibration of a mechanical nature but I could feel every crack in the pavement for about 30 miles at highway speeds. After that, things smoothed out and the tires behaved like they had before.....quite well. I have since discovered that if I drive the truck every other day there is no problem. It's when I let it sit for almost a week at below freezing temperatures that the tire stiffness problem surfaces. It really isn't a problem, it just the nature of the tires.

I traded a 96 Ranger 4x4 in on the Tundra. In 74K miles, I never got a hint of vibration through the steering wheel on the Ranger no matter what the front tire inflation happened to be. The Tundra rack and pinion steering provides a good deal more road feel and feedback than the recirculating ball type steering in the Ranger. Thus, someone who is accustomed to driving a Ford 4x4 will have cause to wonder if the Tundra 4x4 has a problem of some sort. It does -- cheap tires. Toyota dealers aren't about to start a fight with Dunlop by coming clean on this issue which would also make Toyota look bad. So, the official position is that nobody seems to know what the problem is and there is no solution. Loosely translated that means Toyota is not going to replace the tires under warranty to solve a vibration problem.

Personally, I think this business about "windmilling" of the front propeller shaft, due to cold oil in the front differential, as being the root cause of the vibration is baloney. I know that my front prop shaft does turn even at walking speeds when the oil is cold but there is no hint of vibration at any speed cold or hot.

When my truck had less than 1,000 miles on it I changed over to synthetics in both differentials, the transfer case, transmission and engine. I used what I could get locally, for the most part. That turned out to be Mobil 1 75W90 in the front differential and transfer case, Amsoil 80W90 in the rear limited-slip differential, Amsoil Universal ATF in the auto transmission, and Mobil 1 5W30 in the engine. The transmission shifts more smoothly (seamless now), the engine sounds more healthy, there is no hint of vibration from any source, and my highway gas mileage went from 16.6 to 19.5. I also got rid of the Dunlop tires.

This is a bit off the subject but it needs to be said. I see a tendency for people to automatically assume that a Tundra may not be a quality truck. What I see is superb engineering, incredible attention to detail, and excellent build quality. It's the single best motor vehicle I've ever owned and I have owned a bunch. Even so, being a new design it does have a few warts but nothing comparable to the new GM light truck line or the Ford 150. Take a look at the list of technical service bulletins on alldata.com if you have any doubts.

As for me, I intend to relax and enjoy this Tundra. It's a dandy.

Herb

[scott mcquillan]

Herb:
I agree completely with you on the quality of the Tundra. I feel it has all others beat hands down.I would not give mine up for anything, it is in a class all its own. I wish you could experience the noise/vibration some of us have in the front end. Actually I hope you never experience the problem with your truck, what I ment was if you could drive one that does it just to see what some of us are going through. It is not tire related or it would remain constant at certain speeds. It is not constant, actually I have a one second pause between, it is like driving over these slashes in the road to alert you to a upcomming stop sign. Well, I think I may try the synthetics in the transfer case and differentials to see what this brings. And thank you for all of your suggestions, it gives me something to try in hopes of eliminating or reducing the so called "windmilling". Thanks again, this is a great tool to voice concerns and get all this great advice and tips on Tundras. I really do appreciate the feedback.

Thanks Again, Scott

[Herb]

Scott:

Based on your description of the symptoms, the best yet, I would have to agree that it probably isn't the tires. What you seem to be describing is what I would call a "rumble" and perhaps a pulsating rumble at that.

There is no need to fess up to it, but if you've been following Toyota's advice, as setforth in the owner's manual and on the visor, and driving your truck in 4wd on anything other than a low traction surface (ice or snow) and turning corners, chances are
that is one probably cause of the condition that might be expected to generate the symptoms you described. Ford certainly doesn't make such a recommendation, at least they didn't used to. I was mortifed when I read that in the owner's manual.

I was similarily mortified when I saw the 10 mile per month exercise recommendation. This would apply to trucks equipped with manual lockout hubs or automatic hubs out on the end to the front drive axles which, by design, prevent component parts inside the front differential from turning at all thus reducing wear and tear and increasing gas mileage. Inactivity of front differential components can lead to corrosiion of parts that are constantly exposed to the air in the upper half of the axle housing. Thus, it's a good idea to exercise those front differentials once in a while but there's no need to shift into 4wd to do that. Knowing what I know, I can't imagine what Toyota has in mind.

If the front prop shaft "windmills" as has been suggested, that means that all the internal parts inside the front differential are turning in lubricant which is exactly what happens during the 10 mile per month exercise drill. I know "windmilling" happens when the oil is cold and stiff but it may not happen when the oil is warmer as would be the case during the summer. What I intend to do during warmer weather is merely turn the front propeller shaft 8 revolutions or so by hand once a month, lacking any better idea right at the moment.

Without knowing what the weakest and most easily damaged component is in the front wheel drivetrain, I can't give you any specific advice as to the cause. I suspect the side gears and pinion gears inside the differential case have suffered some damage but I'm just guessing. Overloaded needle bearings in U-joints can develop flat spots and rumble. Without a complete teardown and inspection, it's impossible (for me) to tell exactly what's causing the symptoms you described.

At the risk of being dinged by the moderator, here's a true but somewhat unrelated story which illustrates just how hard it is to pinpoint the exact source of drivetrain rumble. A friend came to me with a 66 Chevelle that had been diagnosed by 2 shops as having a terminally ill rear differential needing replacement. I test drove the car and it had a horrible rumble coming out of the rear differential, or so it seemed. The U-joints were found to be in need of replacement, the bearing race surface on one rear axle was starting to spall, and the pinion shaft inside the differential was pretty badly worn. We replaced all those parts. This work reduced the rear end rumble a bit but did not totally eliminate it. To my embarrassment, I discovered 2 bad front wheel bearings. One fell apart in my hands when I pulled it out. The rollers and races were so spalled they looked like the surface of the moon. Cause? One shop that was calling for a new differential had recently cleaned and replaced the front wheel bearings. The spindle nuts had been tightened to an estimated 35 foot-pounds and left that way. That degree of pretensioning overloaded the bears and they failed. The noise they generated sounded like it was coming from the rear end. My point is that even though a noise may seem to be coming from a particular location that doesn't automatically mean that the noise heard is being generated at that location. That's what makes drivetrain noise analysis a less than exact science.

I wish I could come up with some advice that would be more comforting. If I experience the same symptoms I guess I'll just drive the Tundra until something falls out or stops working entirely. That will make an accurate diagnosis a lot easier.

I also intend to change the front differential oil annually or at 10K mile intervals and see what's collected on the magnetic drain plug. Aside from that, and not using 4wd unless I'm in danger of being stuck in 2wd, I don't know what else I can do.

Your Friend,
Herb

[jrog]

Scott,

I too am in the middle of trying to get my 2000 TRD 4X4 (37,000 miles)back to the way it was when I bought it. It went into a local dealer for the 30,000 mile major service and came out with the exact symptoms that you are having. I have a major rumble at 25 MPH then it stops, only to return as a loud humming/ whining noise at 45MPH-60MPH. After that it kind of goes away. After returning to the dealer and asking what happened they replaced the front bearings. It did not fix the problem; they then said it could be the tires? Which to that I said, I am going to another dealer.
Well I took it to another dealer and it was there for 4 days last month and they determined that they were going to pull the drive shaft and rebalance it, and if that did not work they were going to replace the rear diff. Well I dropped it off on Monday and I don’t have it back. I called today and they said that they are going to replace the transfer case and that the Toyota engineer, on his monthly visit, thought that that is the problem, I was told that the drive shaft was fine. I guess we will see.
At this point I just want the $%*& thing fixed but like the post before I guess that it can be a very frustrating thing to diagnose. The services manager today asked if I had ever driven it around in 4WD on a dry surface for a prolonged period of time, to that I said, this is not my first 4WD and we left it at that. I hope they can fix it because this is my last hurrah under the warranty.

Jamie

[RETLEP]

Personally, I think this business about "windmilling" of the front propeller shaft, due to cold oil in the front differential, as being the root cause of the vibration is baloney. I know that my front prop shaft does turn even at walking speeds when the oil is cold but there is no hint of vibration at any speed cold or hot.

Quoting Herb.


Herb, if you feel this "windmilling" is baloney. How do you explain it immediately going away when engaging 4WD?

[Herb]

Retlep:

That's an excellent question. I mentioned this in another thread. I wish I could remember which one.

Okay -- when driving in 2wd a gear set inside the differential case spins all the time. This set consists of 2 sidegears and 2 pinion gears. They are bevel gears arranged in a box-like configuration. The wheel and driveshaft on the driver's side cause these gears to spin. The sidegears spin at the same speed, in rpm, as the tire. If the pinion gears are the same size as the sidegears, these too spin at the same speed. If they are smaller they spin at a higher speed. All this is happening inside the differential case which is inside the differential housing. The differential housing is the gearbox you see bolted to the frame up front.

When the system is shifted into 4wd, power is transmitted through a drive chain inside the transfer case to the front propeller shaft. The propeller shaft begins to spin at a speed that is 3.919 (or something like that) times the tire rotation speed. The prop shaft is attached to the drive pinion which engages the ring gear which is bolted to the differential case inside the differential housing. All this commotion causes the differential case to spin in the same direction and at the same speed as the front tire. When this happens, the sidegears and pinion gears cease to turn with respect to each other and merely go along for the ride inside the case until called upon to rotate with respect to each other when the vehicle enters a turn which causes the front tires to rotate at different speeds. That's the purpose of the gear set, to allow the two tires to rotate and differing speeds.

If you have a standard differential in the rear, it is arranged and operates exactly the same way with the exception that the gears in the internal gear set only rotate with respect to each other in a turn, when one wheel has lost traction and is spinning, or when two tires of differing diameters are installed on the rear.

Okay -- the internal gear set spins in 2wd and doesn't spin when in 4wd except when in a turn. My thinking is that wear and excessive backlash in the internal gear set is at least one probably cause of the vibration. Then too, a chipped or broken gear tooth might also enter into the picture. My gut feeling is that wear and an increase in backlash in the gear set will occur even if the system is never operated in 4wd.

If 4wd is used on anything other than low traction surfaces (ice, snow, mud) and turns are made, the small gear set I mentioned takes a real beating because the gears are forced to rotate with respect to each other under high load conditions while transmitting torque to the drive axles. The gear set appears to be the weak link in the chain and therefore the most likely source of the vibration -- excessive backlash in that gear set.

For what it's worth, the differential in a Ford Explorer with a shift-on-the-fly system operates much the same way. The difference is that automatic locking hubs were installed out on the end of each driving axle. The hub was the weak link in the chain. When that system was operated in turns under high traction conditions, the forces ripped the guts out of one of the hubs. A Ford dealer told me he sells hubs by the truckload during winter months at $325 a copy plus installation.

I learned a long time ago that these newer part-time 4wd systems should only be engaged on slick surfaces. That bit of advice shows up in Ford owner's manuals, or at least it used to.
As a rule of thumb that I adopted years ago, I only use 4wd when in danger of becoming stuck in 2wd.

I hope I've managed to answer your question in a way that makes sense. Make no mistake, this is only my best guess as to the cause of the vibration and noise based on how the front differential operates. I'm sure sorry to hear that people are having problems. At the moment, my truck doesn't exhibit the described vibration and I hope it doesn't. Only time will tell.

Your Friend,
Herb