Thanks Tundra Solutions (TSB Information)

[Don H]

Took my truck in last Monday to have the seat belts, the rear brakes, and of course to complain about the tapping on cold start.
I gave them the TSB's for the belts and brakes I found on TS, otherwise I don't think they would have done the work. The service writer tried to argue with me about the brakes stating that Toyotas did not have self-adjusting brakes. I had to explain about the parking brake. Where do they get those people! Guess you can't expect much from someone who writes a service order like this "Rear brakes seem like THERE DRAGING".
They had my truck for four days so I though for sure they had found out something about the tapping as it's been 10 degrees or colder every morning this week and I bet you could have heard the engine from fifty feet away, but no luck. They said it was normal injector noise. I told the service writer I would accept that if they started any of the new trucks on their lot and it made the same noise. He would not do it. If I stood talking to a wall at least I wouldn't get that dumb look they give you.
I think I am going to do what another member did and take my truck to an independent shop for their opinion. If they say it's a cracked header at least I will have something in writing as my 3 year warranty is up in a couple of months.
Thanks again Tundra Solutions.

[TundraBear]

also have them check the rear bolt on either manifold. i had the same experience with my wrangler. seems that the tech broke off the bolt inside the engine block so they were unable to get a 100% seal at the rear end of the manifold. fortunately it was still under warrenty so they ended up giving me new headers a new lower block for free!

good luck!

[Don H]

Since I got my truck back from the dealer I've had a couple of shadetree mechanic friends listen to it. You know the type. They have never owned a new car but own 6 or 8 old ones and keep them running like new. Anyway, when they pointed out to me that the tapping seemed to be coming from the top of the engine I had to agree. So maybe it is the injectors but I still don't like it. I still think I will have an independent certified mechanic listen to the engine so I have something in writting just in case it's piston slap or a cracked manifold.
I have found another TSB, one for the door checks, at Tundra Solutions. Maybe I am being a bit vindictive but I love it when you give them the TSB number and they have no choice but to fix it. None of that "it's normal" nonsense.
Maybe I should mention a few things I like about my truck instead of always complaining. It's a Thundergrey Limited with leather and I love it when people get in it for the first time and go "WOW, this is nice". Best brakes of any vechicle I've ever owned and it's faster than my Olds 6.6L when towing my boat. There's more but I think that's enough for today.

[TundraBear]

in addition to your injectors...maybe the tappets (sp?) too. i dunno. i'm probably worse then the "shaddetree mechanic". maybe if they take the valve covers off and check in there...

anyways....good luck.

btw, sounds like you got a nice truck there. keep hammering them with te TSBs too!

[PJGrimm]

Your manifold is cracked. I'll bet a dozen Krispy Kremes! I've had 1 crack (and been replaced cheerfully by Toyota City in Minneapolis), and it looks like the other one has now cracked. TICK TICK TICK goes my truck when it's cold. It warms up, and the ticking goes away. It's not the injectors and it's not tappets or anything else. After the last manifold was replaced, the ticking was gone. Now it's back, and I'm about to take my truck in to get another new manifold.

[Don H]

A couple of questions for PJGrimm. At what temperature does your truck have the tapping and how long does it take to go away? Also, how did the dealer determine it was a cracked header?
Mine is pretty quiet above 30 degrees. At 0 degrees it is loud and sounds almost like pre-ignition or bad lifters but gets noticeably softer after about a minute until after 4-5 minutes it's gone.
Actually, after my engine warms up I like to open the hood and listen to the soft tick of the injectors. I've never seen an engine idle so smooth.

BTW
Have you noticed that the colder it is the louder the stock muffler sounds until it also warms up. Don't suppose Toyota was trying to hide the sound of the noisy (take your pick) injectors, cracking manifolds, or piston slap, do you.

[DevinSixtySeven]

put yer head down by the front wheel wells when you start the engine in the cold...you'll hear a distinct ticking from one well but not the other if one side is cracked but not the other. it's too nebulous from the top to make out what's ticking where.

it'll go away after 30 seconds to a minute, or however long it takes the engine to warm up (actually, however long it takes the manifolds to warm up and close the leak).

-sean

[Don H]

I see someone added (TBS Information) to my topic heading. Good idea.
When you find a TSB related to your vehicle, on Tundra Solutions, print it out and show it to the service writer. Saves a lot of time trying to explain it to them.
I know Toyota audits the dealers' warranty work and if they find the work was not needed, Toyota's opinion not ours, they will not reimburse them. When the dealer sees the TSB they are much more willing to do the work.
Another TSB I've had done was the one for weak door checks and they are a big improvement. Now I just have to go back to the dealer to have them fix the light on the lower part of the driver's door. It fell out after I got home from having them install new door checks and it appears a clip is missing.
This is interesting. A guy I work with has a Hyunda (sp?) Sonata. I don't know anything about the quality of Hyunda's but he just got a letter offering, I think there were three choices in all, to extend his drive train warranty by 20 thousand miles because they had overrated the engine horsepower by 8. Now that's customer service.

[Don H]

They couldn't find the clip for my door light so they had to order a new light assembly.
While talking to the service writer about coming in for the door light I stated that I was not satisfied with their answer that the tapping noise on a cold start was the injectors. He said that they had just hired a quality control person and if I could drop the truck off the day before getting the light installed the three of us could listen to it the next morning. I did and we did, this morning.
It was about 20 degrees, so it tapped pretty loud. They said that it sounded normal and that the 2003's did the same thing. They even started up a new 2003 and it had the same tapping noise. Both on mine and the 2003 the tapping seemed to be loudest at the right front corner of the engine. They said something about that it was probably piston slap but that it was normal for the engine and that Toyota had torn engines apart and found that it caused no harm. I don't know if piston slap is harmful or not but it does show me that Toyota will not do anything about it if they are still building engines that do it.
Toyota has a lot at stake with this engine with it being in so many of their vehicles now. Maybe with the power of the Tundra Solutions membership and enough people complaining, Toyota will at least put an extended warranty on the problem to show that they are not afraid to stand behind their product.

BTW I checked the oil dipstick on the 2003 and guess what, it had a burr on it just like the my original, the replacement I bought, and the one Toyota send me.

[KLS]

Originally posted by Don H

....
This is interesting. A guy I work with has a Hyunda (sp?) Sonata. I don't know anything about the quality of Hyunda's but he just got a letter offering, I think there were three choices in all, to extend his drive train warranty by 20 thousand miles because they had overrated the engine horsepower by 8. Now that's customer service.

Not customer service. It's either the result of a lawsuit or trying to head off a lawsuit.


Ken

[loganbrew]

I've been trying to hunt down the cause of tapping at startup for a year now on my Land Cruiser with 4.7L V8. I too noticed the sound coming from the right front of the engine. I don't trust dealers, neither the sales people nor the mechanics, so I've never asked one about the problem. Several months ago I pulled off the right valve cover to reveal the tappets and check clearances. All was well. I tried some sludge cleaner, synthetic oil and injector cleaner to no avail. Finally, after reading this site and reading of the questionable exhaust manifold, I took another look under the hood recently. A leaking manifold seemed plausible since, along with the ticking/tapping I’ve noticed a corresponding change in tone of the exhaust until the engine warms and the tapping wanes. It would sound like a miss, a dead cylinder, though I never noticed a loss of power or stutter in the rhythm of the motor. Given the new perspective I was using, I figured the dead spot would occur when the exhaust came out the manifold instead of out the tail pipe. Anyway, to begin I removed the heat shield from the right manifold to get a clear view of the manifold. I disabled the fuel pump and stuffed a rag in the right exhaust pipe. I had my son turn over the motor (no ignition due to lack of fuel) while I squirted soapy water at each exhaust port and along the manifold itself looking for leaking air. The front right seal was showing signs of leakage, lots of leakage. No “small fracture” as I’ve read elsewhere would cause this leak and then seal up once warm. In short, I removed the manifold and cleaned all the nuts and studs to allow for smooth threading of nuts on reinstall. I inspected the manifold and gasket for damage and could find none, however, I did notice where the exhaust was seeping by on the front cylinder. The gasket is one like I haven’t seen before. It is four layers of thin stainless steel. The layers are held together only in a few places, so they are free to move independently when not compressed. When and if you ever see one, you’ll easily understand how these four layers clap against each other when exhaust flows over them (if not properly compressed) like the reed of a clarinet. This is the root cause of the tap. I reinstalled the manifold and torqued nuts to specification (33 ft-lb). The tap is absolutely gone now. Notice that just trying to tighten the nuts will not work. Corrosion and whatnot have the nuts firmly affixed. You have to remove the manifold (though not from the engine comparment, just 3"-4" out of the way) and clean the nuts and studs. Make sure they thread smoothly past the place they actually stop once the manifold in back in place. Torque nuts evenly and with an equal number of turns.

[Don H]

Great idea, would never of thought of it. When I first started this thread it had to be about 35 degrees out before my truck made the tapping sound but now it starts doing it at about 50 degrees. I don't have many miles on my truck, about 20k and I've been thinking if it is piston slap, and at the rate it's getting worse, the engine not going to last 50k.
As far as not trusting dealers look at this list.

My 2000 Tundra
Had dealer install factory running boards - missing and stripped screws.
Had dealer replace door checks - lost clip for puddle light.
Had dealer replace puddle light - put 4" scratch in door panel
Had dealer replace seat belts - broke clips for cover on pre-tensioner.
I can only hope they did the rear brake tsb correctly.

My wife's 2003 Corolla
Dealer cut off factory window sticker with utility knife badly scratching window.
Dealer chipped paint on window frame when replacing window.
Had salesman write in big letters on sales contract that the the title was to be in my wife's name only. Title came in both our names. What do you want for an $85 processing fee.