While I don't doubt that an engine can last for a very long time on regular dino oil, it is clear that synthetic oil reduces wear. In other words it does add to the longevity of a vehicle.
I can't see how synthetic significantly adds to the real world longevity of a Toyota. Example: If you go to a large auto wrecking yard, can you find even one Toyota vehicle that got there because the owner failed to use synthetic oil? Answer: No. That's because a Toyota engine will still have good compression and will run well after 500,000 miles of running on dino oil that was changed regularly.
Toyota's end up in wrecking yards because of serious engine and transmission wear or failure problems having nothing to do with whether or not the owner used synthetic or dino engine oil. Examples; running low on oil, extending oil changes, problems with aftermarket oil filters (e.g. ctbale who started this thread said his oil pressure was lower when he used a Fram filter) leaks from the seals aftermarket oil and air filters, failure to change ignition, emission, exhaust and cooling system parts and fluids BEFORE they are worn enough to declines in engine power and fuel economy or increases in engine operating temperatures. That sort of thing.
I'm pretty sure that there are more Toyotas that don't make it to real high mileage than do. But then, realistically, oil is only one part of making a vehicle last.
It is the combination of many factors that lead to vehicle longevity.
How close to specs was the engine built? (did you get a good one?)
What are the temperatures like where you live?
What is the terrain like?
Do they salt the roads?
What are your driving habits like?
Did you fix things quickly as they failed or wait till other damage was done?
Do you change your oil as often as you should?
Accidents?
Some things we do to our trucks age them. Others contribute to them lasting a long time. I see synthetic oil as contributing factor. Not a key element, but something that might help make up for some of the abuse or neglect. Is it essential to longevity? No. Is it one, small, inexpensive thing that might help? Yes.
If my engine dies early what would I blame it on? If my engine lasts forever what would I attribute it to? Either way, I'll probably figure that I either got a good one or a bad one and it wasn't the oil...
If my engine dies early what would I blame it on? If my engine lasts forever what would I attribute it to? Either way, I'll probably figure that I either got a good one or a bad one and it wasn't the oil...Bob
There's no mystery to it. If a Toyota engine is broken in right, always fed clean dino oil, never allowed to misfire, never allowed to run a lean or rich fuel mixture, never allowed to run too hot or cold, never run with valve clearances that are too loose or too tight, not frequently lugged or ever overrevved, and maintained with factory original filters, spark plugs, etc., then the durability potential is in the 600,000 - 1,000,000 mile range even if the engine is used for alot of city driving or mountainous driving. And the engine won't die suddenly, power and compression will be maintained for most of those miles, but the oil consumption will gradually increase until ultimately spark plug fouling occurs because of piston ring / cylinder bore wear.
Instead of wasting money on oil analysis, it's more productive to monitor exhaust emissions. Squeaky clean HC, CO and NOx emissions assures the owner the fuel and ignition systems are in top shape. Increasing emissions warns the owner trouble is developing with the fuel mixture or quality of the spark on one or more cylinders that could dramatically increase wear in one or more cylinders.
I just realized that the subject was Fram vs Toyota oil filters...
I've been using the M1 filters for a while now. Seems to me that the oil is a little cleaner. Could be that I switched from el-cheapo gasoline to Top Tier Chevron. Could be my imagination. I have a Toyota filter that I'm going to use next time.
Again, it's like my previous message. Completely unscientific. Although, there are often better things available than factory oem. If a manufacturer built there products with "only the best" we probably couldn't afford them.
The original poster said that he saw a significant change in oil pressure. That sounds like a pretty good indication that something was wrong with the Fram. I've read so many bad reviews of Fram filters that I wouldn't buy one.
Now Amsoil - can make a Vega last as long as KR's truck! Oh, oh got off of the subject again.
Hey KR. For the most part, I agree with you. But the future of my truck isn't entirely in my hands.
I used to work for a company that built data collection equipment for the auto industry. All the data collected along the assembly lines was used to try to tighten manufacturing control and tolerances. Using SPC (Statistical Process Control) it could be determined what vehicles or engines would be either above or below standard manufacturing specs. Yes, some come off the assembly line better than others.
Things have improved drastically over the years and Toyota has been one of the best! But, alas, some are still better than others. Look at what Toyota considers normal oil usage. I would really be worried if my engine used a quart of oil every 600 miles! But they included that spec to cover themselves. My truck has about 56k on it and doesn't use any easily measurable amount of oil. But somewhere out there, there is the poor guy that sees some oil consumption. Not his fault. Not caused by the type of oil or filter he is using.
The more vehicles that come off the line working correctly, the better the reputation of the manufacturer. Let's be realistic. Some can make it to 600k and other will be doing well to make it to 200k no matter what the owner does right.
This theory can be applied to trucks, oil, filters, tires, wives and husbands.
The more vehicles that come off the line working correctly, the better the reputation of the manufacturer. Let's be realistic. Some can make it to 600k and other will be doing well to make it to 200k no matter what the owner does right.
I disagree. For every 10,000 Toyotas that come off the assembly line, virtually all 10,000 will have like new compression after 200,000 miles and very minimal oil consumption (if broken in correctly and maintained thereafter) Who ever see's blue smoke (except at start up) coming out of a Toyota tailpipe?
KR, I wish Toyota saw it that way and extended all our engine warranties from 60k to 200k. I believe it's common to make it to 200k. And progressively less common to get higher. But it's progressively less common not just because of the way we care for our engines, it's also because there are differences in production engines. Some really are better than others. I saw the numbers for several years. I'll admit that it was a Detroit company and that Toyota is better. But there are going to be variations in manufacturing and therefore in wear. Just a fact of life...
I agree that generally, no two identical engines run the same.
Production tolerance discrepancies, environmental factors, and pattern and method of maintenance, must all be considered.
Dynoed Emission results show these variations in identical model engines.
In the end one truly doesn't have full control over whether an engine will reach the miles that KR insists will be achieved using a rather simplistic OEM approach to maintenance.
Many dynamic factors cannot be controlled.
And sometimes yu get a good engine and other times not.(the luck of the draw)
Doesn't matter which OEM is producing an engine.
There will always better production runs than others. Whether MB, BMW, GM, Audi/VW Porsche, and the rest INCLUDING Toyota.
I agree that generally, no two identical engines run the same.
Production tolerance discrepancies, environmental factors, and pattern and method of maintenance, must all be considered.
Dynoed Emission results show these variations in identical model engines.
In the end one truly doesn't have full control over whether an engine will reach the miles that KR insists will be achieved using a rather simplistic OEM approach to maintenance.
Many dynamic factors cannot be controlled.
And sometimes yu get a good engine and other times not.(the luck of the draw)
Doesn't matter which OEM is producing an engine.
There will always better production runs than others. Whether MB, BMW, GM, Audi/VW Porsche, and the rest INCLUDING Toyota.
I disagree. Please name SPECIFIC parts of a TOYOTA engine that have been known to wear excessively to the point of either catastrophically failing or causing low compression or cause excessive oil consumption before 500,000 miles, because of "Production tolerance discrepancies".
Practical examples:
1. Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that was properly broken in and driven and yet developed high oil consumption at some point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies"?
2. Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine vehicle that suffered burned valves at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies"?
3. Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that suffered connecting rod knock and eventual rod breakage at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies"?
4. Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that suffered crankshaft main bearing or thrust bearing failure at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies"?
5. Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that suffered worn camshaft lobes or journals at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies"?
I disagree. Please name SPECIFIC parts of a TOYOTA engine that have been known to wear excessively to the point of either catastrophically failing or causing low compression or cause excessive oil consumption before 500,000 miles, because of "Production tolerance discrepancies".
Practical examples:
1. Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that was properly broken in and driven and yet developed high oil consumption at some point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies"?
2. Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine vehicle that suffered burned valves at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies"?
3. Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that suffered connecting rod knock and eventual rod breakage at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies"?
4. Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that suffered crankshaft main bearing or thrust bearing failure at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies"?
5. Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that suffered worn camshaft lobes or journals at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies"?
Even Toyota engineers know that some production runs are better than others. They are generally caught and retooling corrections are made.
Whether it's because of poor tolerance or even poor assembly, some engines are prone to higher miles than others, all things being equal.
And I feel the valvtrain/heads are the most vulnerable, not so much the short block/bottom end.
Honestly ,what is a truly correct break-in. (most importantly the oil and compression rings at the pistons)
Yes, this is the foundation for a high mileage engine.
But, engine break-in is such a variable.
For most people ,it is just drive as usual from day one. For others, drive it hard from day one. And then yu have every other method in between.
And I feel the valvtrain/heads are the most vulnerable, not so much the short block/bottom end. Honestly ,what is a truly correct break-in. Yes, this is the foundation for a high mileage engine.
But, engine break-in is such a variable. For most people ,it is just drive as usual from day one. For others, drive it hard from day one. And then yu have every other method in between. See my point? LT
No, I don't see your point. I've said from the beginning that the foundation for a high mileage engine includes a driver who drives properly, not abusively, especially during break-in. What I don't understand is that the one hand you say "the valvtrain/heads are the most vulnerable" [to early wear out] but you don't name any specific valvetrain / head parts that could wear out early due to "production tolerance discrepancies" during manufacture or assembly. Practical examples:
1) Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that suffered worn camshaft lobes or journals at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies" during manufacture or assembly?
2) Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that suffered a prematurely blown head gasket at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies" during manufacture or assembly such as overtorqued or undertorqued head bolts, mispositioning the head gasket, etc?
3) Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine vehicle that suffered burned valves at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies" during manufacture or assembly e.g. setting the valve clearance too tight or impact damage to the valve adjuster screws or shims due to setting the clearances too loose?
4) Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine vehicle that suffered valve
seat recession or broken valve springs to at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies during manufacture or assembly" ?
My tread is like the energizer bunny!!! cool. I would like to make one observation though, when one of those "bad things" happen to your engine, 99% of the time its many years and 80k to 300k down the road, (sorry KR, 80 to 500K) so how would you differentiate if its production line of the engine, how you maintain the engine, or how you operate the engine? would it not be a combination? There has to be some variations on the production line ... just has to be. But is a variation a discrepancy? I don't know. I don't know what variations are allowed or within tolerance. If one engine goes boom, cuz its a half a thou looser than its brethren that was born a month before ... was that the reason it died at 80K, dont think so, was it nature or nurture ... or a combination ... wow, I am getting such a head rush right now you have no idea.
moral of the story (forum thread) DONT INSTALL A FRAM FILTER ON YOUR ENGINE ... BECAUSE IF YOU DO THEN EVERYBODY WILL KNOW WHY YOUR ENGINE DIDNT MAKE 500,000 .... OR WAS IT A 1,000,000?
This's what happens when you feed the bots (KRTB and LTTB).
I agree though, auto manufacturing, just like any other type of complex machinary manufacturing, can never be perfect. To think otherwise is simply to deny reality.
Of course, some think Toyota has its own reality. But I'll leave that up to the bots.
No, I don't see your point. I've said from the beginning that the foundation for a high mileage engine includes a driver who drives properly, not abusively, especially during break-in. What I don't understand is that the one hand you say "the valvtrain/heads are the most vulnerable" [to early wear out] but you don't name any specific valvetrain / head parts that could wear out early due to "production tolerance discrepancies" during manufacture or assembly. Practical examples:
1) Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that suffered worn camshaft lobes or journals at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies" during manufacture or assembly?
2) Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine that suffered a prematurely blown head gasket at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies" during manufacture or assembly such as overtorqued or undertorqued head bolts, mispositioning the head gasket, etc?
3) Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine vehicle that suffered burned valves at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies" during manufacture or assembly e.g. setting the valve clearance too tight or impact damage to the valve adjuster screws or shims due to setting the clearances too loose?
4) Who's ever heard of a Toyota engine vehicle that suffered valve
seat recession or broken valve springs to at any point in it's life due to "Production tolerance discrepancies during manufacture or assembly" ?
Valve guide seal blow-by!!
For one. Have been found on various Toyota engines under 100K miles that were well maintained with recommended OCI's. Not due to gelling issues aside.
A small percentage of Toyotas engines exhibit this . Have for years.
I guess yu really can get a bad one sometimes.
Nothing is perfect. We are human.
BTW, there are so many professionally recomended techniques regarding break-in.
The short, yu breakin hard or yu breakin soft, then there's everthing
in-between.
That is a whole new topic, one that WILL impact the longevity of an engine.
Re: WOW! Fram vs Toyota oil filters
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