How many want to try a Hydrogen converter on their Tundras?

[gary_william]

Originally Posted by tundrahq

Won't work - can't work - impossible to work.

It's called "the law of conservation of energy".

Energy in can not equal more than energy out. Think of it this way:

1) You break water down into hydrogen and oxygen using power from your car's electrical system. This is the Energy In stage.

2) You recombine the Hydrogen and Oxygen in the engine compartment. This is the Energy Out stage.

Whatever you put in, that's the most you can get out.

There is a slight cooling benefit from pumping hydrogen into the cylinder, but it's pretty small.

If you don't like my physics explanation (which is 100% correct btw), think of it this way. If it really was as simple as adding a few hundred dollars worth of crap to your truck and gaining 2mpg, why wouldn't Toyota being doing it at the factory? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T WORK.

Read this:

SCAM ALERT - Adding Hydrogen To Your Gas WON’T Save You Money | Accurate Auto Advice

That's an even better explanation.

sorry, but you are only half right, or half wrong, whatever you want to call it. The physics part is correct, the laws of conservation of energy cannot be broken (excluding subatomic physics of course). the way that this system (HHO) can and will work is only if the energy used to create the gas is from a source OTHER THAN the source of the car's engine power. This means running the device off of the alternator will not work, which is your originale xplanation. However... if one were to charge a separate battery via regenerative braking, where the vehicle's engine is not charging the battery but the slowing motion is converted to an electrical charge IS charging it, then you have collected otherwise-wasted energy, which some will call "created free" energy (energy is not being created, just not wasted). Another source of this reclaimed energy can be a peltier junction that charges the battery. A peltier junction creates an electrical charge by the flow of electrons due to temperature differentials, which could be harnessed into the secondary battery to run the HHO converter.

it IS possible to use HHO to make power, but not as it is currently being done, I agree. Oh, and those that want to use batteries to run the system need to remember that the batteries need to get their charge from somewhere, and that there are inherent losses in that process as well.

[DRAGULA]

I have a very good friend of mine who has made several of these that have worked! He has the 2005 Tundra and is getting 20mpg in the city and 27 hwy with no loss of power...I just talked to him today about it and am interested for myself. My truck has so many mod's I'm as skeptical as anyone but with some time and trial with I'm sure we will see. I know for a fact he can make it work and work well on the 4.7L Tundra and Sequoia...he bought them both from me! And he's a good wrench....on Toyota's and otherwise!

[throbinskin]

Originally Posted by DRAGULA

I have a very good friend of mine who has made several of these that have worked! He has the 2005 Tundra and is getting 20mpg in the city and 27 hwy with no loss of power...I just talked to him today about it and am interested for myself. My truck has so many mod's I'm as skeptical as anyone but with some time and trial with I'm sure we will see. I know for a fact he can make it work and work well on the 4.7L Tundra and Sequoia...he bought them both from me! And he's a good wrench....on Toyota's and otherwise!

Keep us informed... My wifes boss is working on one but for a f150

[AeroE]

No offense intended to anyone, but this makes no sense whatsoever. It would be a perpetual motion machine. As an engineer I roll my eyes every time I hear about hydrogen cars being a solution, or emission free. They are not. It takes energy to break the molecular bond between hydrogen and oxygen that compose water. When hydrogen is burned, it oxidizes and reconverts to water. It takes as much energy (more actually, given real world inefficiencies) to separate hydrogen from water than you get burning it. Where do you think the hydrogen being used in cars comes from? Mostly from natural gas (which is largely CH4), or by electrolysis of water using electricity. There is no net energy gain. Think of hydrogen as a type of battery. Not a source of energy, but a means of storing it. A hydrogen car is an electric car that is powered by a power plant that burns coal (emissions) or is nuclear powered (wind and solar are side shows-at least for our lifetimes). That is why new electric power plants (& power distribution infrastructure) are so important. Electricity (through plug-in, or hydrogen, or fuel cells which use hydrogen) is the only technology evenly remotely available to displace gasoline.

[joshp]

Originally Posted by FIVEPOINTSEVEN

Yea because water is an unlimited resource right lol.

Exactly. You think oil is a commodity, just wait until people realize the fresh water issue the world has. Tough, tough, tough times are ahead. That's why I'm not a fan of hydrogen fuel cell. It can be produced through electrolysis but that requires fresh water. It can be extracted from the earth but then you have pollution produced. You're going to see more and more nations wanting access to nuclear technology for energy production.

As for the comment of energy being needed to break the bond for hydrogen we could use solar technology I'm still against it though because of the water shortage we are sure to be facing in 100 or less years (depending on world growth). I'm trying to cherish everyday of life the way it is because things are going to change.

[AeroE]

joshp; you're correct if referring to fresh water, although where I live we currently have an abundent surplus-want some? If you wanted to use electricty to extract hydrogen from water, sea water would work fine, and there is no shortage of that. The water isn't lost when using hygrogen; when burned it converts back to water and eventually will end up in the ocean. Solar isn't a practical energy source except for remote cabins, DOT signs, spacecraft, and home heating (I did solar energy research as a career for a number of years). The only currently feasible way to use solar for hydrogen is to convert to electricity with photovoltaics, and this is far more expensive per Btu than $7/gallon gas.

[semcoll]

OK - You scientists are making this waaaay too complicated.I am going to solve the world's fuel problems, right here and now. Electric vehicles are the solution.
Here's what we have to do:

1. Remove the 5.7 and replace with an electric motor

2. Battery in the bed

3. Hook up enough alternators to the axles so that amps into the battery is greater than amps out. simple.

[got wake?]

just a thought on the whole energy cannot be created or destroyed/energy in - energy out idea, the energy output from burning the hydrogen is not only directly linked to the energy needed to separate the molecules. the energy output comes from burning the hydrogen, which has stored energy when it was in its water form. it just takes the electrolysis to separate and utilize that energy.

[tundrahq]

Originally Posted by gary_william

sorry, but you are only half right, or half wrong, whatever you want to call it. The physics part is correct, the laws of conservation of energy cannot be broken (excluding subatomic physics of course). the way that this system (HHO) can and will work is only if the energy used to create the gas is from a source OTHER THAN the source of the car's engine power. This means running the device off of the alternator will not work, which is your original explanation. However... if one were to charge a separate battery via regenerative braking, where the vehicle's engine is not charging the battery but the slowing motion is converted to an electrical charge IS charging it, then you have collected otherwise-wasted energy, which some will call "created free" energy (energy is not being created, just not wasted). Another source of this reclaimed energy can be a peltier junction that charges the battery. A peltier junction creates an electrical charge by the flow of electrons due to temperature differentials, which could be harnessed into the secondary battery to run the HHO converter.

it IS possible to use HHO to make power, but not as it is currently being done, I agree. Oh, and those that want to use batteries to run the system need to remember that the batteries need to get their charge from somewhere, and that there are inherent losses in that process as well.

Well you've got me there! If someone is using "found" power - like regenerative braking - then this system has some promise.

I'm thinking that it can't be too much of a benefit. I still believe that the automakers would be falling all over themselves to find a one or two mpg benefit. If this system is as cheap as everyone claims it is - and I realize it probably isn't - than it would be standard equipment on a new truck.

People need to understand - Dodge, GM, and Ford are losing billions of dollars every year. Spending an extra $200 on every truck and SUV to improve fuel economy be even 10% makes sense. It might boost sales, and considering just how dire it is for a lot of the manufacturers right now, they'll do anything (see "employee pricing" and 0% for 72 months).

Good point - I stand corrected.

[low c1500]

Originally Posted by got wake?

just a thought on the whole energy cannot be created or destroyed/energy in - energy out idea, the energy output from burning the hydrogen is not only directly linked to the energy needed to separate the molecules. the energy output comes from burning the hydrogen, which has stored energy when it was in its water form. it just takes the electrolysis to separate and utilize that energy.

Wrong, Yes it is.

[got wake?]

Originally Posted by low c1500

Wrong, Yes it is.

so you are stating that water has no potential energy?

[low c1500]

Originally Posted by got wake?

so you are stating that water has no potential energy?

It seemed like you were saying that less energy is required to "crack" water in HHO, than the would be released by then combusting the new Hydrogen. And that is wrong.


I would guess that every molacule would have "potential energy".

[pburgi]

I have read about this in many places over the web. I still don't know what to think of these systems. I used to dismiss the idea completely, although lately I have learned a bit more and am a little more open to the idea. There are many systems on the web that are not worth their weight in scrap, however if done right I believe there may be merit to this.

While the statement that energy cannot be created, merely transferred from one state to another is true, as well as the fact, that we have not yet figured out how to reap 100% efficiency in any process that transfers energy from one form to another (example heat to electrical energy).

Those of you who claim that it won't work due to the alternator putting additional stress on the engine and there by negating any gains that may be seen from the additional hydrogen that enters the combustion chamber are over looking one thing.

If the introduction of the hydrogen (and additional oxygen) makes the combustion of the existing gasoline/air mixture more efficient then in principle this can work. In this case the additional energy output comes form the more efficient burn and not purely from the hydrogen system.

As I said before, I'm still skeptical. Why haven't the major auto manufactures incorporated this as it would be cheap and increase demand for their product.

I would love to hear feedback from some one that is using one of these systems. It seems like the feedback is always from someone who knows someone.

[daless2]

Hydrogen can be extracted from water via a chemical process, without electrolysis.

This is not a far-fetched idea, but rather a fact, which does not fly in the face of Physics or Chemistry at the practical, doable, and proven levels.

The process of how to separating Hydrogen from the Oxygen in water “Chemically” has been known for 50 or more years. IBM developed it in the early 1960’s.

Finding a way to do it practically with cost effective resources has been the hard part.

Recently there have been major developments in this arena by Purdue University.

“Purdue University has developed a method that uses an aluminum alloy to extract hydrogen from water, “On Demand” for running fuel cells or internal combustion engines, and the technique could be used to replace gasoline.”



Here is a link to one of the many articles available on this topic. (Do a google search on “Purdue Hydrogen” if you would like to read more).

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2007a/070515WoodallHydrogen.html


This is an interesting article to read for those who have an interest in this topic.

The Purdue Process is a pure chemical process, which requires Water, Aluminum and the rare earth element “Gallium”.

The Purdue University Process of separating the Hydrogen from water has been validated by 32 other research universities and has now be licensed to a “For Profit” company to develop commercial applications.

It’s going to be interesting to see where this Purdue University development goes in the market place.

Time will tell I suppose.

Have a great day,

Frank

[Sanosuke]

All this talk about the energy having to come from somewhere...

Why hasn't someone mentioned _SOLAR_ PANELS for the energy???

Its not like the sun is going to vanish, at least for another fifty billion years. :P

Sanosuke!