If you Believe it works than it does for you. Placebo effect. Injecting an extremely small amount of hydrogen 1 part per billion of normal air into your intake manifold will have no effect on internal combustion in a fuel injected system with High pressure injectors. Sorry but I'm glad you didn't spend allot to learn this.
That being said if you BELIEVE, it will work....for you.
If you Believe it works than it does for you. Placebo effect. Injecting an extremely small amount of hydrogen 1 part per billion of normal air into your intake manifold will have no effect on internal combustion in a fuel injected system with High pressure injectors. Sorry but I'm glad you didn't spend allot to learn this.
That being said if you BELIEVE, it will work....for you.
Lots of people have done this at the refinery on their personal trucks...it works.
I really hope none of you are running this type of household contraption in your new Tundra. I can only imagine a dealer mechanic's face when he pops the hood and sees a couple of tubes running out of a coffee can into a thermos and to the vehicle's air intake.
__________________
My Truck: 2005 Tundra, 2UZFE. 4WD. AccessCab. Spectra Blue Mica (8M6). TRD. AT. CC. CK. DZ. FE. AW. LD. OF. TO. VP.
Lots of people have done this at the refinery on their personal trucks...it works.
Like I said you only have to believe. All I ask of anyone is think about it... How does the hydrogen get into the cylinders in a large enough quantity to have any effect on combustion? Think about how much natural air flows through your air intake system then slowly inject hydrogen bubbles it all mixes resulting in parts per billion. There will be no combustion benifits. Now divided this parts per billion to 8 cylinders..... THINK.
I'm am still encouraged by the ingenuity of all who think of these ideas. This is what makes our country great. Sooner or later someone will have an idea that truly does work. I say keep up the fight.
Like I said you only have to believe. All I ask of anyone is think about it... How does the hydrogen get into the cylinders in a large enough quantity to have any effect on combustion? Think about how much natural air flows through your air intake system then slowly inject hydrogen bubbles it all mixes resulting in parts per billion. There will be no combustion benifits. Now divided this parts per billion to 8 cylinders..... THINK.
I'm am still encouraged by the ingenuity of all who think of these ideas. This is what makes our country great. Sooner or later someone will have an idea that truly does work. I say keep up the fight.
there are systems that store a higher pressure and a more complicated "hydrogen generator". with higher pressure, you would have more H+HO gas. my buddy sent me a PDF with plans to build a much more advanced system. however, reading through it, the designers name is "William S. Power" and it is signed "Bill" = B.S. Power! i couldn't help but laugh and be skeptical about the whole thing after reading that.
__________________
2.4" front/1" rear leveling kit - toyo A/T 285/75/18 tires - bull bar with hella 500FF lights - 20% tint side and back windows - 55% full windshield tint
in the works:
stock HU -> LOC -> PPI FRX-456 -> DLS A4 + Marathon 6150 -> DLS iridium 6.2 comps + Hybrid-Audio L3's + 4 Tang Band W6-1139SI's
to come:
JBL MS-8 + center channel speaker + components for the rear + sirius adapter for stock HU
As an engineer I find this all very interseting but I have to agree with MILLSP - the volume of hydrogen gas required to have any effect in an internal combustion engine is probably thousands of times what comes out of these small home-brew units. Think about how many cubic feet of air are going into the engine every minute. If there is some effect here it is not from hydrogen. We need a double-blind study on identical trucks because you can get 2-3 more MPG just in how you drive. Maybe the mods to the truck have affected the control system and it is running much leaner than it was before. This is how the tuner-boxes get more MPG - lean out the air/fuel mixture. That works but has some bad side effects.
I had 3 years of chemistry in school and have a degree in physics. Real science does not lie. One thing I learned is to look at the big picture. If it makes no sense it is probably a fault in how the experiment was done. While I applaud the inventiveness of the OP and others in this area, I just don't see how a trickle of hydrogen is going to give you 5 more MPG. You would need many CUBIC FEET of hydrogen per minute which requires a lot of energy to produce. Then you're back to the old Conservation of Energy issue. If you spend 5kW to get 3kW out you're in a losing battle. Remember those Perpetual Motion things in the '60's? Maybe not. I helped one retired local guy finally see the light that he was wasting his retirement money on stuff that was impossible.
Anyway, keep us posted - people thought Tesla and Einstein were crazy too...
I'll tell you -- your 3 years of chemistry and physics were wasted on one thing -- textbook knowledge and not practical knowledge.
Sanosuke!
lmao, that's great i love dealing with degreed engineers who design parts that can't be made cost effectively and have no idea how and what tools would be used to make a part. in the model/theoretical world the part would be perfect, but in the real world we have to deal with limitations in how things are made and how expensive processes are.
__________________
2.4" front/1" rear leveling kit - toyo A/T 285/75/18 tires - bull bar with hella 500FF lights - 20% tint side and back windows - 55% full windshield tint
in the works:
stock HU -> LOC -> PPI FRX-456 -> DLS A4 + Marathon 6150 -> DLS iridium 6.2 comps + Hybrid-Audio L3's + 4 Tang Band W6-1139SI's
to come:
JBL MS-8 + center channel speaker + components for the rear + sirius adapter for stock HU
Lighten up on Engineers, without them you would be driving a wagon to work.
As far as the laws of thermodynamics go, you will gain nothing from the hydrogen system assuming all efficiencies/variables remain the same before and after the hydrogen generator is installed. Therefore, if there is an increase in fuel economy, that assumption must be flawed.
If there truly is a gain, it is because adding the hydrogen to the fuel mix makes the cycle being performed by the engine more efficient in some manner, not because you are "adding" free energy to your intake. This manner may or may not have negative long term effects on the system.
A simple example is this. You have a hydrogen combustion engine hooked up in a circle to a power generator and a hydrogen generator. If the hydrogen generator was able to make more hydrogen than what was burned to power the generator, you would have an infinite free source of hydrogen. The tank would be filled faster than it was emptied. It just doesn't work that way, and due to efficiencies in each process you would eventually end up with an empty tank of hydrogen and the machine would stop.
That aside, there are ways to explain fuel economy gains with a hydrogen system. My guess is that adding hydrogen to the fuel mix makes some process happen more efficiently. This increase in efficiency would have to be greater than the energy losses incurred while powering the hydrogen generator.
Really, lots more testing needs to be done before anything can be engraved in stone. Statistically you will want numbers from at least 30 tanks of Gas. Also, at 1.2 gallons there is too much room for error in such a small volume. It could be as simple as the last gas pump you used auto stopping faster than the previous one did. I know you plan to burn more gas and look at the results, and I encourage you to do so.
If you shut something out as impossible, then you blind yourself to progress. However, there is a certain amount of testing that must be done before something can be considered "fact". Its possible that the hydrogen system is increasing your fuel economy, and its equally possible that its just fooling the engine into running more efficiently in a manner that could be duplicated by tweaking the electronics. Even if it is proven that your system increases your fuel economy, the “how” question remains unanswered. This question must be answered before you can incorporate a new technology into future cars, and expand that technology to reach its full potential.
PS: Its been much too long since I have slept, so if I made a dumb mistake in the way I worded something cut me some slack. Moving tomorrow... headed back to school (mechanical engineering major)
Let me preface all I am about to say by saying that I am skeptical about these myself, and would really love to see more information, pictures, etc... We had a guy on here not long ago making many of the same claims who seems to have disappeared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miles711
Lighten up on Engineers, without them you would be driving a wagon to work.
Nope, you would be on foot. Or horseback if you were lucky.
Quote:
As far as the laws of thermodynamics go, you will gain nothing from the hydrogen system assuming all efficiencies/variables remain the same before and after the hydrogen generator is installed. Therefore, if there is an increase in fuel economy, that assumption must be flawed.
If there truly is a gain, it is because adding the hydrogen to the fuel mix makes the cycle being performed by the engine more efficient in some manner, not because you are "adding" free energy to your intake. This manner may or may not have negative long term effects on the system.
A simple example is this. You have a hydrogen combustion engine hooked up in a circle to a power generator and a hydrogen generator. If the hydrogen generator was able to make more hydrogen than what was burned to power the generator, you would have an infinite free source of hydrogen. The tank would be filled faster than it was emptied. It just doesn't work that way, and due to efficiencies in each process you would eventually end up with an empty tank of hydrogen and the machine would stop.
I'm a lawyer, not an engineer and I can see a flaw in your example, as well as the example of the "perpetual motion" argument. The problem being is that you are describing essentially what can best be described as "closed systems," which the hydrogen generators most assuredly are not. I have yet to hear someone assert that the generators are giving them unlimited mileage, only that it increases it in a small, yet for our purposes, significant way. The power for the generator comes from the alternator, which is run by the engine, which is powered by gasoline. The fact that there is an external fuel source beyond the hydrogen is what makes it an open, not closed, system, and thus the example above and the perpetual motion arguments do not apply.
Yes, it takes power to run the alternator, and there is some increase in draw on the engine if the alternator is running more current to power the generator. The question is; is the parasitic draw on the gasoline engine taking more power than the generator is creating. I have a hard time believing so, considering I have many times run lights, radio, cb, and the like without a noticeable drop in MPG, all the while keeping my battery fully charged.
The question regarding the long term effects on the engine is, however, a valid one.
Quote:
That aside, there are ways to explain fuel economy gains with a hydrogen system. My guess is that adding hydrogen to the fuel mix makes some process happen more efficiently. This increase in efficiency would have to be greater than the energy losses incurred while powering the hydrogen generator.
Is it possible that the combination of hydrogen and O2 in the system creates slightly more fuel, along with a more oxygen rich environment? Again, I'm a lawyer, and my chemistry was taken about 25 years ago, and is more than a little rusty. Think 30 year old Chevy Vega rusty.
Quote:
Really, lots more testing needs to be done before anything can be engraved in stone. Statistically you will want numbers from at least 30 tanks of Gas. Also, at 1.2 gallons there is too much room for error in such a small volume. It could be as simple as the last gas pump you used auto stopping faster than the previous one did. I know you plan to burn more gas and look at the results, and I encourage you to do so.
If you shut something out as impossible, then you blind yourself to progress. However, there is a certain amount of testing that must be done before something can be considered "fact". Its possible that the hydrogen system is increasing your fuel economy, and its equally possible that its just fooling the engine into running more efficiently in a manner that could be duplicated by tweaking the electronics. Even if it is proven that your system increases your fuel economy, the “how” question remains unanswered. This question must be answered before you can incorporate a new technology into future cars, and expand that technology to reach its full potential.
Agreed!
Good luck on the Mechanical Engineering degree. My oldest daughter wants to go into Aeronautical Engineering. Don't ask me where she got that from!
__________________
If Buddha is burning in hell, I'd better pack my summer clothes.
"Courage is being scared to death… and saddling up anyway." - John Wayne.
"A lot of people run a race to see who is fastest. I run to see who has the most guts." Steve Prefontaine
The question is; is the parasitic draw on the gasoline engine taking more power than the generator is creating.
It's not a question, elementary physics says yes. The electricity (energy) required to split the hydrogen and oxygen is more than you can ever get from combining it back together (through combustion).
__________________
~Michael
2008 Toyota Tundra 5.7 2WD - Toy Hauler / 2006 Toyota Sienna Limited - Kid Hauler / 1993 Toyota MR2 - Autocross Car
Mods: Tekonsha P3; Tow Mirrors; TRD Wheels; TPMS Pipe Bomb
Re: 23MPG Hydrogen Generator 4.7
Re: 23MPG Hydrogen Generator 4.7
i love dealing with degreed engineers who design parts that can't be made cost effectively and have no idea how and what tools would be used to make a part. in the model/theoretical world the part would be perfect, but in the real world we have to deal with limitations in how things are made and how expensive processes are.
Linear Mode
