23MPG Hydrogen Generator 4.7

[TraderHal]

I found a place where you can buy a hydrogen generator but the tube placement is a bit uncomfortable

[LTek1]

Originally Posted by MTeator

It's not a question, elementary physics says yes. The electricity (energy) required to split the hydrogen and oxygen is more than you can ever get from combining it back together (through combustion).

Not that I buy it, but if you read the websites selling these generators, many of them don't claim to be a fuel source, they claim to be a catalyst for the existing fuel combustion cycle.

While I find that hard to believe, the claim that some people are running entirely on water is an even larger rat to swallow.

[Lextreme]

Could be dangerous if not done right. You are basically creating a B.O.M.B.

[Tundradrenalin]

Originally Posted by TraderHal

I found a place where you can buy a hydrogen generator but the tube placement is a bit uncomfortable

no, you have just posted the source to a large deposit of METHANE gas.

Originally Posted by Lextreme

Could be dangerous if not done right. You are basically creating a B.O.M.B.

So true. The amount of Hydrogen gas they are now injecting is unmeasurable.

[LeeinAZ]

The technology is available now. The process is simple and can be done with the existing 12 volt electrical system.

MagDrive Fuel From H2O - HHO Generators

The Magnum Series HHO Gen by MagDrive..

[Miles711]

Originally Posted by DocWard

The problem being is that you are describing essentially what can best be described as "closed systems," which the hydrogen generators most assuredly are not.

Yes, it takes power to run the alternator, and there is some increase in draw on the engine if the alternator is running more current to power the generator. The question is; is the parasitic draw on the gasoline engine taking more power than the generator is creating. I have a hard time believing so, considering I have many times run lights, radio, cb, and the like without a noticeable drop in MPG, all the while keeping my battery fully charged.

Generally speaking, any combustion engine is considered an open system anyway. There is air going in (energy) and exhaust coming out (energy). My example was probably a bit oversimplified, but that basic principle is still the case.

The parasitic draw on the gasoline engine should always be greater than the added energy of the hydrogen in the combustion process. This is due to the fact that every component of the system has a certain efficiency at which it operates. Nothing is 100% efficient (though I am not sure about the hydrogen generator, I'm not completely familiar with that process).

Another over simplified example would be if you took the same circle I mentioned earlier; hydrogen combustion engine, generator, hydrogen generator and did not connect the generator to the intake on the engine. If you put 1 kg of hydrogen into the combustion engine, you would get about .5 kilograms of the total potential energy being put into the generator. That is, you have generated enough power to create .5 kilograms of hydrogen. The actual number may even be less, as combustion engines loose lots of energy to heat losses. Both the heat energy and the mechanical energy being put into the generator must be equal to the energy of the fuel consumed. Thus you cannot put 100% of the energy into the generator, since you will always loose a significant amount due to heat losses. Next is the generator. Say you are given an input of enough energy to produce .5 kilograms of hydrogen. The generator will have some friction losses, since something has to be moving. These losses will be small, much smaller than the combustion engine. For the sake of the argument lets use 90%, though it may be better/worse. Assuming that the hydrogen generator is 100% efficient, we have just made .45kg of hydrogen from 1kg of hydrogen. The .55 kg of hydrogen lost is now in the form of heat.

While that doesn't directly translate to what is going on in the car, it shows that you cannot create more energy than you used to create it. The gas motor will burn more energy's worth of gas that it creates. You could substitute the hydrogen combustion engine with your V8 that has been given gas with the same potential energy as 1kg of hydrogen.

This is why you are not creating any extra energy with the hydrogen generation system. Technically, you are loosing energy due to the efficiencies of the gas burned to create the hydrogen as well as in the generator (alternator). This does not rule out the possibility of the hydrogen generator increasing your fuel economy. It just means that the increase must come from an increased efficiency somewhere along the line.

I am very interested in learning more about the hydrogen generator, and the results the OP gets from it. Also, when I am back on campus I will swing by my professor's office as well as discuss it at our first SAE meeting (Society of Automotive Engineers). We are building a hybrid racecar this year, so I'm sure we will be having lots of discussions like this one.

Shoot me a PM if you guys have any questions as your daughter looks into or starts with Engineering. I would be happy to help you guys out. I'm currently a Junior, so I have recently survived the Freshman rat race

I'm going to be without internet for a few days, so no quick responses from me. I currently have EVERYTHING I own either in my Tundra or being towed by it, and I will have to take some pictures Peace guys, have a good weekend.

[got wake?]

Originally Posted by Miles711

Lighten up on Engineers, without them you would be driving a wagon to work.

i am an engineer, just not a a degreed one. i'll take real world experience over textbook theories any day of the week. i have seen first hand degreed engineers who can't do half of what i can do with all their schooling. not to mention that most all the truly successful people i know in designing/manufacturing are self taught. the bottom line is that the job of an engineer is to make life easier for the people who aren't smart enough to do it themselves. there are only a few engineering practices that really need a degree behind them (chemical and nuclear come to mind).

[07DCwhiteSR5]

i cant believe we are goin on three pages of BS posted by someone who had like 6 posts but joined a year ago...not sure what his interest is in posting BS articles but oh well. ya'll enjoy yourselves im going to go find a bed bouncing, thin paint, thin metal , thin glass thread to read that will be more entertaining than this one.

[got wake?]

Originally Posted by Miles711

Generally speaking, any combustion engine is considered an open system anyway. There is air going in (energy) and exhaust coming out (energy). My example was probably a bit oversimplified, but that basic principle is still the case.

The parasitic draw on the gasoline engine should always be greater than the added energy of the hydrogen in the combustion process. This is due to the fact that every component of the system has a certain efficiency at which it operates. Nothing is 100% efficient (though I am not sure about the hydrogen generator, I'm not completely familiar with that process).

you are not taking into account the hydrogen making the gasoline burn more efficiently. you don't need to increase spark, you don't need to increase air into the engine, you don't need to add more fuel, but you get a more efficient burn of the gasoline. while splitting the molecules does require more energy than to burn it and turn it back to water, that is not the purpose of these kits. but i'm also wondering how the added chemicals (salt in the video from the OP) changes the splitting efficiency. but we aren't looking at just burning the hydrogen, except in those claiming to run an engine completely on water. its the addition of the hydrogen to the gasoline combustion process that allows the system to make the engine more efficient and yield better gas mileage. the added draw from the generator would not be enough to reduce gas mileage, even if you didn't pipe the hydrogen into the intake. look at the stereos added to many vehicles. i had a car with a 105 hp engine and a 3+kwatt stereo system. that stereo system had the capability to draw more current than the alternator could supply, over 3 times more, actually. but the engine itself was rated to 78.3 kwatts. the stereo was equivalent to about 4% of the power the engine itself was and capable of drawing well over 200 amps. i cranked it all the time and did not notice any significant changes in mileage (read less than .3 mpg difference from when i ran it and when i didn't due to something being broken). i did however notice a difference due to the weight of the system (300+ lbs just in the enclosure and subwoofer). there is no way these generators draw that kind of current, and even if they did, we would not notice a difference in mpg from the added draw of the generator with our bigger alternators and more powerful engines (105 hp with a 67 amp alterntor is nothing compared to the tundra's system).

moral of the story:
nothing is impossible, but some things are improbable. you have to look at the big picture and as many variables as possible. and then there are times to just say eff it and try it to see what happens remember, people used to think the world was flat...

[DocWard]

Originally Posted by MTeator

It's not a question, elementary physics says yes. The electricity (energy) required to split the hydrogen and oxygen is more than you can ever get from combining it back together (through combustion).

Perhaps I am just dense (Mrs. Doc usually has other words), but I still get hung up on the fact that the gasoline driven engine is actually creating the electricity, and if the draw on the alternator is not significant enough to overwhelm its capacity, then the physics is not quite so elementary. Also, is the hydrogen and oxygen actually recombining, or is oxygen simply aiding combustion, or some combination? If, as was said above, it acts as a catalyst and not a fuel source, how does that change things?

Originally Posted by Miles711

Generally speaking, any combustion engine is considered an open system anyway. There is air going in (energy) and exhaust coming out (energy). My example was probably a bit oversimplified, but that basic principle is still the case.

That was my understanding, which is why I made mention of it.

The parasitic draw on the gasoline engine should always be greater than the added energy of the hydrogen in the combustion process. This is due to the fact that every component of the system has a certain efficiency at which it operates. Nothing is 100% efficient (though I am not sure about the hydrogen generator, I'm not completely familiar with that process).

Again I am in agreement. There are losses due to heat and friction, etc...

While that doesn't directly translate to what is going on in the car, it shows that you cannot create more energy than you used to create it. The gas motor will burn more energy's worth of gas that it creates. You could substitute the hydrogen combustion engine with your V8 that has been given gas with the same potential energy as 1kg of hydrogen.

...

This is why you are not creating any extra energy with the hydrogen generation system. Technically, you are loosing energy due to the efficiencies of the gas burned to create the hydrogen as well as in the generator (alternator). This does not rule out the possibility of the hydrogen generator increasing your fuel economy. It just means that the increase must come from an increased efficiency somewhere along the line.

I suppose I am having problems with the arguments on multiple fronts. I have had multiple people assert that any electrical draw on an alternator puts a resulting strain on the engine that lowers gas mileage. I have never done any experiments personally (driving for several tanks with my lights, fan and radio on vs. all off, or something of the sort), but I can say I have driven with lots of my electrics going without the engine appearing to work any harder. I have never been able to grasp why, if the alternator is working well within its capacity, why the production of the electricity needed to run one more process would drop mileage so dramatically. I understand the science says it has to, but experience makes me scratch my head and think of all the other electrics running that don't seem to do so.

I do wonder if the portion of your statement that I bolded is a big part of it. Hopefully one day we'll know the answer.

I am very interested in learning more about the hydrogen generator, and the results the OP gets from it. Also, when I am back on campus I will swing by my professor's office as well as discuss it at our first SAE meeting (Society of Automotive Engineers). We are building a hybrid racecar this year, so I'm sure we will be having lots of discussions like this one.

Good luck with the buildup, and let me know how it all goes.

Shoot me a PM if you guys have any questions as your daughter looks into or starts with Engineering. I would be happy to help you guys out. I'm currently a Junior, so I have recently survived the Freshman rat race

She is just a freshman in high school, although if she keeps going on her current path, she will start taking some undergrad courses in the next couple of years. We are currently trying to look at colleges with strong engineering programs, and of course, her like or dislike of a college will rule the day.

[jan kohlmann]

This system should save Toyota millions by not having to pay power train warranty claims to those who use this HHO system on their trucks.

Of course putting a TRD decal on the coffee can may help.

[arkansas]

My interest was turned on to this by a good friend who I went through engineering school with. He is the third generation owner of a business that runs many large trucks and spends up to $100k in fuel per month, so you can understand why this is interesting to him. The guy is really unique in that he has the formal education and he was raised around this stuff since he was born so he has actually more hands on knowledge than formal education. Anyway, he has built and installed about 10 of these on his large trucks. He has gone from about 6 mpg to 7-7.5 mpg on those trucks. He's been working on this for over a year. He is not using baking soda because of it's fouling characteristics. He is using potassium hydroxide. He also put one on his wife's Yukon and she has seen a significant increase in her mpg. It works if it's done right, whether you want to believe it or not. I just haven't dove into it yet, but I will soon. Also, he estimated the cost to put one on a truck like ours to be $100 to $150 doing it the way he has found to be the best so far.

[MTeator]

Originally Posted by DocWard

Perhaps I am just dense (Mrs. Doc usually has other words), but I still get hung up on the fact that the gasoline driven engine is actually creating the electricity, and if the draw on the alternator is not significant enough to overwhelm its capacity, then the physics is not quite so elementary.

This is because you don't understand an alternator or generator works. As load increases it takes more energy to turn the alternator.

Originally Posted by DocWard

Also, is the hydrogen and oxygen actually recombining, or is oxygen simply aiding combustion, or some combination? If, as was said above, it acts as a catalyst and not a fuel source, how does that change things?

This is because you don't understand how combustion works. It's a chemical process where you end up with the compound and heat or heat & light (flames).

I wonder how many people have one of these things, a tornado air intake, fuel magnets, and acetone in their gas. They must really get a lot of MPG

[dpktm]

I have a 2007 Double Cab with the 4.7. Last night I successfully installed a hydrogen generator all for about $30.00. After topping off this morning and driving around and refueling I have averaged 23mpg.

[got wake?]

Originally Posted by MTeator

This is because you don't understand an alternator or generator works. As load increases it takes more energy to turn the alternator.

well no sh*t. it does require more energy to turn the alternator, but not in any significant amount. anyone who says that the mpg increase possible from adding the H+HO to the combustion will be negated by the energy used to turn the alternator to supply the current to the generator has little to no experience with adding increased loads to a vehicles charging system and its effects on mpg.