Synthetic or Not in Extreme Cold

[v8Toilet]

OK so the PCV valve system is working it’s just not working well enough to vacate the blow-by gases quickly and they linger for extended periods of time.

[Johnny Law]

Originally posted by ZenKnight
If that's true, then what you and Rager are saying is Mobil only cares about making money in the American market. Why would making money in Europe not be as important?

You must admit that ZenKnight does bring up a good point.

[DevinSixtySeven]

Originally posted by ZenKnight
If that's true, then what you and Rager are saying is Mobil only cares about making money in the American market. Why would making money in Europe not be as important?

editorially, may i point you to volume two of an excellent work written in the late 1800s by a frenchman, entitled "democracy in america"...and in short, i will say "because it's easier to make money in america". i will not however get in to a discussion as to why.

in addition and possibly more likely than the scent of higher profits is the greater potential for blame being laid on exxon/mobil after the cr report...while it is entirely possible that the number of engine failures was no different than any other group of rebuilt engines, the general public is more likely to jump to the conclusion that the extended drain interval caused the problem, not a bend crankshaft for example. exxon/mobil precluded a great deal of trouble by reducing their claims to whatever is stated as the max drain interval recommended by the manufacturer.

-sean

[Tundra2UZ]

Originally posted by ZenKnight
If that's true, then what you and Rager are saying is Mobil only cares about making money in the American market. Why would making money in Europe not be as important?

I'm sure Mobil would love to generate more sales in Europe than they do, but I think it would be quite difficult for Mobil 1 to recommend only 3000-7500 mile oil change intervals since I hear the oil companies over there recomend 12,000-18,000 mile oil change intervals(ie: extended drains). The idea of Mobil selling a supposed to be premium oil at a premium price and it not at least meeting the extended drain standards set in Europe would not look too good for the Mobil 1 product. Maybe I am wrong, just my .02.

[acme]

Originally posted by v8Toilet
OK so the PCV valve system is working it’s just not working well enough to vacate the blow-by gases quickly and they linger for extended periods of time.

Yes , the PCV system is operated by vacuum when at idle and cruise, it closes during wide open throttle due to the lack of vacuum (check ball in PCV valve)...Crankcase pressure is realeased through a hose from the valve cover to the air intake tube near the air filter. You can see it on the passenger side of the valve cover.. not operated by vacuum ,just equals internal engine pressure with the outside atmosphere using the air cleaner tube.....


Alan

[arkie6]

Originally posted by acme
Yes , the PCV system is operated by vacuum when at idle and cruise, it closes during wide open throttle due to the lack of vacuum (check ball in PCV valve)...Crankcase pressure is realeased through a hose from the valve cover to the air intake tube near the air filter. You can see it on the passenger side of the valve cover.. not operated by vacuum ,just equals internal engine pressure with the outside atmosphere using the air cleaner tube....

Actually, the hose you just described is the crankcase ventilation system fresh air intake. The PCV valve and suction hose is located on the opposite valve cover and is routed to the top of the throttle body right behind the butterfly. If you remove that metal cover over the throttle body, it will be easy to see. The hose is insulated and the PCV valve sticks in the rubber grommet in the drivers side valve cover.

To be able to evacuate those crankcase vapors, you need some filtered makeup air and that is what the hose on the passenger side valve cover provides since it pulls in air downstream of the air filter but before the throttle butterfly (little if any vacuum there). It is sized such that there should be a slight negative pressure in the crankcase at most all times the engine is running. This helps to prevent oil leaks around seals in addition to removing the oil vapors.

And that PCV suction line being located right behind the throttle body butterfly is why we have to periodically clean the throttle body. Those hot oil vapors being dumped in near the relatively cold throttle body can create some pretty nasty carbon buildup over time and no amount of fuel system cleaner will touch it since that is injected farther downstream at the fuel injectors.

[v8Toilet]

Originally posted by arkie6
Actually, the hose you just described is the crankcase ventilation system fresh air intake. The PCV valve and suction hose is located on the opposite valve cover and is routed to the top of the throttle body right behind the butterfly. If you remove that metal cover over the throttle body, it will be easy to see. The hose is insulated and the PCV valve sticks in the rubber grommet in the drivers side valve cover.

To be able to evacuate those crankcase vapors, you need some filtered makeup air and that is what the hose on the passenger side valve cover provides since it pulls in air downstream of the air filter but before the throttle butterfly (little if any vacuum there). It is sized such that there should be a slight negative pressure in the crankcase at most all times the engine is running. This helps to prevent oil leaks around seals in addition to removing the oil vapors.

And that PCV suction line being located right behind the throttle body butterfly is why we have to periodically clean the throttle body. Those hot oil vapors being dumped in near the relatively cold throttle body can create some pretty nasty carbon buildup over time and no amount of fuel system cleaner will touch it since that is injected farther downstream at the fuel injectors.

Are you a technician too? That is exactly right!

[ZenKnight]

Originally posted by DeepStealth
editorially, may i point you to volume two of an excellent work written in the late 1800s by a frenchman, entitled "democracy in america"...and in short, i will say "because it's easier to make money in america". i will not however get in to a discussion as to why.

What de Tocqueville was getting at there was a policy of "laissez-faire" economics, ie, lack of governmental interference in the operation of a free enterprise system.

in addition and possibly more likely than the scent of higher profits is the greater potential for blame being laid on exxon/mobil after the cr report...while it is entirely possible that the number of engine failures was no different than any other group of rebuilt engines, the general public is more likely to jump to the conclusion that the extended drain interval caused the problem, not a bend crankshaft for example. exxon/mobil precluded a great deal of trouble by reducing their claims to whatever is stated as the max drain interval recommended by the manufacturer.

-sean

That's probably a littler closer to the truth. Whether or not they could substantiate that their product is suitable for an extended drain probably plays a part too.

Originally posted by Tundra2UZ
I'm sure Mobil would love to generate more sales in Europe than they do, but I think it would be quite difficult for Mobil 1 to recommend only 3000-7500 mile oil change intervals since I hear the oil companies over there recomend 12,000-18,000 mile oil change intervals(ie: extended drains). The idea of Mobil selling a supposed to be premium oil at a premium price and it not at least meeting the extended drain standards set in Europe would not look too good for the Mobil 1 product. Maybe I am wrong, just my .02.

Over here Amsoil and Redline both advertise extended drain intervals, they directly compete with Mobil in the synthetic oil market.

[acme]

Originally posted by arkie6
Actually, the hose you just described is the crankcase ventilation system fresh air intake. The PCV valve and suction hose is located on the opposite valve cover and is routed to the top of the throttle body right behind the butterfly. If you remove that metal cover over the throttle body, it will be easy to see. The hose is insulated and the PCV valve sticks in the rubber grommet in the drivers side valve cover.

To be able to evacuate those crankcase vapors, you need some filtered makeup air and that is what the hose on the passenger side valve cover provides since it pulls in air downstream of the air filter but before the throttle butterfly (little if any vacuum there). It is sized such that there should be a slight negative pressure in the crankcase at most all times the engine is running. This helps to prevent oil leaks around seals in addition to removing the oil vapors.

And that PCV suction line being located right behind the throttle body butterfly is why we have to periodically clean the throttle body. Those hot oil vapors being dumped in near the relatively cold throttle body can create some pretty nasty carbon buildup over time and no amount of fuel system cleaner will touch it since that is injected farther downstream at the fuel injectors.

I was describing the PCV valve on how it works alone , the passenger side tube does equal the pressure and have a point to draw in filtered air for the PCV valve to evacuate the vapor....just didn't mention it.......Some of our club members rigged up a container that catches the crankcase vapor which turns it to liquid and after just a few miles of driving it has about 1/8 inch of oil in a small (Beer can size) bottle Helps keep detonation down since we run up to 25 lbs of boost....(Stock boost is 12.5 LBs). Any oil in the intake can cause dirty runners and back of intake valves get crusty with carbon and oil mixing with gas can cause spark knock ..... . The bottle is in-line with the vacuum hose after the PCV valve ....simple device......Vacuum draws air/vapor through the bottle , vapor cools and heavier than air and goes to bottom and turns to liquid , and cleaner air goes back in the intake...simple , but works...


Alan

[KLS]

Cosmo...
Read your warranty book and your owner's manual page about oil. As long as the oil meets the specification, and you either change it on the schedule or get an oil lab analysis on the recommended schedule, you have absolutely no warranty worries. You will be very pleased with the cold weather results of a good synthetic oil in very cold weather. Also give serious consideration to synthetic ATF in your power steering and automatic transmission, and synthetic gear oil in your differentials. They benefit from the protection, and it pays off for you if you keep your truck a long time.


Fred...
Couple of comments, if I may--
1) Magnuson-Moss act relates to the brand of products used. If the manufacturer says that a buyer must use the manufacturer's brand of maintenance product, they must provide it free.

2) No oils contain an appreciable amount of wax, and all petro oils contain pour point depressants that minimize the wax from gelling at low temperatures. Pennzoil is no more prone to sluding than Chevron or any other top quality oil. Sludge is mainly caused by oxidation of the oil, not paraffin or wax. Paraffin (doesn't mean wax, it means the construction of the carbon and hydrogen atoms in the molecule) based oils are the superior oils. The petro alternative is naphthenic based oils, and they are very unsuitable for engine oils.

3) If anyone does use extended oil drain intervals beyond the manufacturer's recommendation, they really need oil analysis at the recommended time. To skip the analysis is to ask for an arguement in case of a warranty claim, and who needs that?

4) My take on the reason ExxonMobil doesn't recommend drain intervals longer than the engine maker is that they don't want the legal headache and bills when there's any kind of engine breakdown and the engine maker tries to push the responsibility off on ExxonMobil.

5) I think the reasons that some Toyota engines are sludge prone are a) the camshaft timing gears shears the oil, b) the damaged remnants of the viscosity index improver polymers that were sheared are very prone to oxidize into sludge, and c) the PVC system might not be as effective as it should be, also increasing the possibility of oxidation and subsequent sludge formation. My preference is for an oil with a high High Temperature/High Shear viscosity, preferably 3.5 cP or higher. I'm using Schaeffer's #703 10W-30 parasynthetic oil ($3.50/qt). I've seen several good analyses of this oil being suitable for continued service after 10,000 miles, and one of 26,000 miles in a Dodge Caravan with 497,000 miles and no oil-related engine repairs (alternator, tune-ups, etc as needed)...the usual oil change interval on this Dodge has been 20k.
http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/703.htm


Ken

[moosehead9]

In my opinion the sludge problem is from the PCV system not doing it's job. The gear drive on the cam shearing the oil is just
not a theory I can accept. Diesel engines have a gear train that
drives the cam, fuel pump, air compressor, and power steering pump. The only belt on some diesels is for the alternator and AC.
Diesels have no PCV either...they vent to the open air. Fuel oil is
not considered an evaporative pollutant. I have not heard about
any sludge problem on diesel engines. I just can't accept that
gear shearing theory...It may still have merit, though, as I don't
know it all.