Why "NOT" to use moly based engine......

[marks tundra]

oil or additves with moly in it.

MOLYBDENUM: MoS(2): MOLY: - Contained in fortified Conklin Convoy Motor Oil

Commercially available molybdenum disulfide comes from a natural mineral, "Molybdenite". As far back as the gold rush days, prospectors found rich out-cropping of the mineral in Colorado. Settlers and prospectors alike used it to lubricate wagon axles. It was not until the 1920's and 1930's that any use was made of the mineral commercially. Basically MoS2 is a hexagon crystal composed of a lattice of layers of sulphur and molybdenum atoms, they retain their laminar structure no matter how finely pulverized. Moly has a very low coefficient of friction even in the higher heat ranges to 750 degrees F. It has an extraordinary affinity to stick to metal especially if rubbed in, It is a blue-grey crystal. No way has been found to change the color.

Now, that is Moly's early history. What good is it now?

Well, for one thing, it has made the near-permanent lubrication of certain chassis points on automobiles possible. Most major automobile manufacturers are very safe in advertising their 30,000 mile lubricating-free chassis and suspension. Ford said they get 100,000 miles without relubrification. That historical claim became possible after research resulted in grease and oils fortified by molybdenum, that could continue to lubricate over periods of time and at pressures never before possible.

What causes it to plate: Examining the principles of hydrodynamic lubrication (just a technical name for using oil and greases to do a job). Hydrodynamic lubrication exists when all the asperities (microscopic hills and valleys) of the parts being lubricated are separated by a layer (film) of fluid (oil or grease). The ideal situation is no metal to metal contact and therefore no wear. But, and this is a big one, under sufficient pressure and heat the oil film is squeezed out and the metal surfaces begin to get together. When such a dangerous situation occurs the result will be very high local spot temperature rises which causes a lubrication failure. The result of lubrication failure is galling and scoring of bearings and piston rings which causes high oil consumption or complete failure of parts effected.

So how does Moly help with such a problem? Remembering what we stated above, Moly has the extraordinary affinity to stick to metal, especially if rubbed in. It does not dissolve in oil or grease, It is not possible to grind Moly so small, .35 micron (one micron equals a millionth of a meter0 that the particles remain suspended in liquids, such as oil, grease, glycol, water and alcohol. When the treatment is added to crankcase oil, temperature and pressure cause instantaneous reaction between Moly and bearing metal, and a low friction solid film is formed to keep the bearing surfaces from actually touching. This plating is firmed by thermo-chemical reaction and it is continuously supplied to the friction surfaces of the engine or equipment parts by being suspended in the fluid lubricant. The Moly solid film friction plating is extremely durable-probably the only method of removal is to grind it off. Because Moly is a lubricant, it is possible for two Moly plated parts such as a bearing and a shaft to run for an indefinite period of time without a fluid oil. Although little advertising has been done to educate the general public, it certainly is not an idle product. Major oil companies and most large industries are depending on oils and greases fortified with Moly to extend the service life and reduce maintenance on aircraft, trucks, compressors, tractors, ships and automobiles. Properly used it can double the operating life of equipment and reduce maintenance as much as 60%. Another small plus for Moly in these days of fuel prices, is that an engine treated with Moly usually obtains 10% to 25% better fuel mileage. Moly reduces friction in an engine up to 60%. It is used by the Army and Navy and most major development laboratories, armament test centers, atomic energy, rocket and jet engine plants in the country. It has been found capable of jobs no other lubricant can handle. One company which produces a liquified Moly for engines, demonstrates the effectiveness of Moly by draining the oil from Moly treated three horse-powered air cooled engines and running them to demonstrate the effectiveness of their product. This writer witnessed the demonstration which allowed the engine to run for hours at a time. The engine was in perfect condition when stopped. It is an unusual experience to watch an engine run while you are holding the oil plug, refer to the 105 mile torture test. Manufacturers of many parts of auto and industry are now using Moly in the manufacture of parts and equipment. The major manufacturers of outboard and inboard marine engines are advertising their use of Moly on piston rings for their speed equipment. The manufacturers of our finest automobiles supply engines with Moly coated piston rings. They also state in their repair manuals that Moly should be used during assembly after overhaul or repair. Moly plated parts are available for auto and equipment through major suppliers. Moly gear oil has become increasingly popular as an assembly lubricant for gear boxes, bearing assemblies and engines. Rubbing surfaces with Moly have a much longer life. Because Moly will withstand pressures to 500,000 lbs per square inch and temperatures to 750 degrees F, it has become popular for use in greases for ball joints, wheel bearings, U-joints and many other high temperature and high pressure points on trucks, automobiles, tractors and aircraft. Moly suspended in grease is capable of withstanding extreme heat. When holding a burning match to a small amount of Moly on a screwdriver it will not melt until it starts to burn. Drivers of race equipment have discovered that a Molly treated engine will develop more R.P.M. because of less engine oil drag and less friction. They are also able to run more races between overhauls. Less wear enables engine to retain cylinder compression longer. You now know what Moly is and what Moly does. Now for a word of caution, Molybdenum Disulfide is a miracle lubricant as described. No other product can insure lubrication protection as it does- but Moly is not a cure all lubricant. It will not correct mechanical defects or cause old worn or worn parts to be like new. Properly used it can double the life of equipment and increase the mileage 10% to 25% and as stated, it is available to those who desire the best protection available for diesels, gas engines, compressors and industrial equipment.



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[KLS]

No motor oils use any molybdenum phosphate compounds. The compound used is molybdenum trialkyldithiocarbamate (MoTDC) or a related carbamate.

These do not cause any damage what so ever. There are many API licensed gasoline and diesel engine oils that use MoTDC, Chevron Supreme, Pennzoil Multi-Grade, and Pennzoil Long-Life being just a few well known ones.

I can show you oil analyses of Cummins engines in Dodge pickups with 22,000 miles on an oil change with the oil remaining good and less wear than expected, and I know several trucking companies running Cummins engines, both under warranty and after the warranty expires, running an oil containing MoTDC with 40,000+ mile oil drain interval and very low wear numbers on the oil analyses...including very low copper numbers in the oil after this mileage.

Here's Schaeffer's description of their moly and their list of approvals--what else would you like to see to confirm that MoTDC is OK?
http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/700.htm
"Further blended into these 100% paraffin base oils and polyalphaolefin base stocks, the exceptionally specialized high performance additive package and shear stable viscosity index improver is a proven frictional modifier, Micron Moly®. Micron Moly® is a liquid soluble type of moly that plates to the metal surfaces of the engine. Once plated, the moly forms a long lasting lubricant film, which prevents the metal surfaces from coming into contact with each other and forms an indestructible long lasting solid lubricant film that is capable of withstanding pressures up to 500,000 psi. . By preventing metal-to-metal contact, damaging frictional wear is eliminated, thus leading to less downtime and longer equipment life."

"Supreme 7000 SAE 15W-40 meets and exceeds the following manufacturers’ specifications and requirements: Military Specifications MIL-PRE-2104G and A-A-52306A, API Service Classification CI-4/CH-4/SL, Global Specification DHD-1, JASO DH-1, Mack EO-N Premium Plus, Allison C-4, Caterpillar, Caterpillar ECF-1, Caterpillar TO-2, Cummins CES 20078, CES 20076, CES 20071; Detroit Diesel, Detroit Diesel/MTU Types Categories 1 and 2, International Harvester, Navistar, John Deere, JI Case, Komatsu Dresser, ACEA E5-99, E3-96, B3-98, B4-98 A3-98; Duetz, Daimler Chrysler MB228.3, Daimler Chrysler MB228.5, MTU MTL 5044 Type 2; MAN 271,Renault, Scania, Volvo VDS-2 and VDS-3, and Volkswagen VW 502.00 and 505.00."

http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/701.htm
"Further blended into these 100% paraffin base oils and polyalphaolefin base fluids, the highly specialized performance additive package and shear stability viscosity index improver is a proven frictional modifier, Micron Moly®, a liquid soluble type of Moly that plates to the metal surfaces of the engine. Once plated, the Moly forms a long lasting lubricant film, which prevents the metal surfaces from coming into contact with each other. By preventing metal-to-metal contact, damaging frictional wear is eliminated, thus leading to less downtime, longer engine life and increased fuel economy.

"Supreme 7000 SAE 5W-30 meets and exceeds the following specifications and manufacturers' requirements: MIL-46152E, CID A-A-52039B, API Service Classification SL, Energy Conserving, ILSAC GF-3, Ford M2C153-G, General Motors, ACEA A1-02, A2-96 Issue 2, A3-02, A5-02; Daimler Chrysler 229.1, 229.3, MS9767; JASO JIS K2215TD-701"


Ken

[marks tundra]

Moly in Engine Oil,


Check out the OEM bulletin from Cummins. It is the Cummins Engine Oil Recommendations, Bulletin No. 3810340-02 . Its probably best if you stopped by a Cummins Dealer and purchased this bulletin- about $2 or $3.
On page 7 it has a section on FRICTION MODIFIERS states:
"There is firm evidence that certain friction modifiers, molybdenum dithiophosphate for example, can in certain formulations result in cam follower pin failure at relatively low mileage"........

From years working with engine test programs to approve engine oil formulations for API licensing, we can tell you that NO engine oil containing Molybdenum additives has been certified by the full range of engine tests necessary to gain API approval.

Molybdenum compounds in motor oils can degrade and cause bearing corrosion and is particularly aggressive towards copper. In almost all cases, any engine oil formula having "moly" will also contain a Copper Deactivator which will protect bearings from the moly compounds. The only problem, the copper deactivator decomposes at relatively low temperatures and looses it's potency after a few thousand miles.

[KLS]

Somehow these postings got scrambled. My posting of 7:39 was in response to Mark's posting which is now stamped 8:41???

Here are the API licenses for Schaeffer's oils which contain moly:
http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseI...LicenseNo=0032
http://eolcs.api.org/

Anyone interested in researching whether or not a certain oil contains moly can look at that oil's MSDS.


Ken