TRD Duals vs. Banks Monster Exhaust

[Lexus Luthor]

What the heck....

Now someone actually seems to give an answer to my original question...thanks RockyMtnRay. ......now that I went and bought the TRD exhaust this weekend.

Oh well. I am very happy w/ my purchase and got a GREAT deal from a member here on the board.

Thanks for the info though guys.

[ThomasMore66]

Originally Posted by Lexus Luthor

What the heck....

Now someone actually seems to give an answer to my original question...thanks RockyMtnRay. ......now that I went and bought the TRD exhaust this weekend.

Oh well. I am very happy w/ my purchase and got a GREAT deal from a member here on the board.

Thanks for the info though guys.

Hey, at least you made a decision. I'm still out here on the fence not wanting to waste my money. I came into this discussion really wanting the Bassani; now I don't know what I want to do.

[TundrastruckDave]

Hey Ray,

First question... is the Banks system a "single-outlet" or a duel-outlet" set-up? Isn't the Banks system a single outlet, like your Gibson system? That said, are you basing your "findings" for the Banks system, on the fact, that it's not a "duel outlet" set-up?

If I'm right on this, that would pretty much "mute" the point, with regard to the TRD system... wouldn't it, since the TRD system "is" a duel outlet? Am I even close to being right here?!

,
Dave

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by TundrastruckDave

Hey Ray,

First question... is the Banks system a "single-outlet" or a duel-outlet" set-up? Isn't the Banks system a single outlet, like your Gibson system? That said, are you basing your "findings" for the Banks system, on the fact, that it's not a "duel outlet" set-up?

The Bankis a typical single pipe catback with one pipe aft of the muffler (IOW a single outlet system). The Banks system does have 3 inch pipe (with a 4 inch tip) instead of the 2.5 inch pipe used in the majority of cat-back systems.

So, I am indeed basing my calculations on a single 3 inch pipe aft of the muffler for the Banks system.

My Gibson isn't a "system" at all...it's simply a single inlet/single outlet replacement of the stock muffler and all but about 8 inches of the stock 2 3/8 inch tailpipe was retained to optimize/improve low end torque. Which I did achieve, BTW...adding the Gibson muffler to the JBA headers increased my low to midrange torque (at around 2600 RPM) enough that my truck's ability to avoid 3rd-->2nd gear downshifts on grades when towing 4000 lbs was substantially improved.

If I'm right on this, that would pretty much "mute" the point, with regard to the TRD system... wouldn't it, since the TRD system "is" a duel outlet? Am I even close to being right here?!

WRT the TRD system...it does indeed use a dual outlet muffler with two pipes of 2.5 inches each going to the sides of the truck. So, no, that doesn't mute the point since the TRD has an extra and fairly long pipe crossing the entire width of the truck so it can exit just behind the driver's side tire. Partly because there are 2 larger-than-stock pipes and partly because the pipe crossing the truck is quite long, the TRD system has nearly twice the post muffler pipe volume that the Banks system has and nearly 3 times as much volume as the stock system. And so we hear unending comments about losing low end torque with the TRD system...which comes as no surprise to me.

[Agent WD-40]

Anybody have a sound clip of the Banks?

[Lexus Luthor]

Originally Posted by Agent WD-40

Anybody have a sound clip of the Banks?

Agent...go here and click on the sound clip link.

Banks Sound Clip Thread

[cubic22]

Ahh beat me to it...
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forum...=banks+exhaust

[ThomasMore66]

Anybody besides Rockymtnray just replaced the muffler in the stock pipe? After all of the discussion, I must admit, I'm leaning toward the JBA's and a replacement muffler. However, unlike Ray, I want a little more growl. I don't want it to be quieter.

Has anybody just replaced the exhaust manifolds with headers and put the truck on a dyno? I'd be curious to see just headers with the stock muffler/pipe.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by ThomasMore66

Anybody besides Rockymtnray just replaced the muffler in the stock pipe? After all of the discussion, I must admit, I'm leaning toward the JBA's and a replacement muffler. However, unlike Ray, I want a little more growl. I don't want it to be quieter.

Has anybody just replaced the exhaust manifolds with headers and put the truck on a dyno? I'd be curious to see just headers with the stock muffler/pipe.

Thomas....

There are lots and lots of folks here at TS who have just replaced the muffler and not installed a "system". In fact that's the path that most of us in the know have repeatedly told people to follow. The usual mufflers chosen are from Spintech or Magnaflow as they're known (Spintech was dyno proven by member v8Toilet) to improve low to midrange torque. By contrast some brands of muffler (Flowmaster in particular) will reduce low to mid range torque. I agree that unless you do a lot of serious towing, you do not want a Gibson...the acoustic characteristics are not what you're looking for. Spintech or Magnaflow would, however, give you the desired sound. Just do a search on "muffler replacement" and you'll have literally hundreds of threads to read through.

As for dyno results of trucks with headers and the stock muffler, I know that some folks have done exactly that but you'll have to search to find out who. Quite frankly the stock muffler flows very, very well and is better than a lot of "performance" mufflers like (cough, cough) Flowmaster. The stock Tundra exhaust has two restrictions: manifold (significant) and muffler (very minor). Replacing the muffler before you replace the manifold just doesn't have much positive effect because the manifold is the real problem. However, once the manfold restriction is removed, then a muffler replacement can be quite helpful since that's now the sole restriction in the pipe...and there will be much more differentiation in response between various mufflers.

However most folks, either out of tradition or because of finances or they want sound more than power, do the muffler before the headers. I went the other way...headers first, then muffler...and I'm 100% convinced that's the sequence to follow if the focus is strictly on improving mid range torque and being able to really determine the effects of muffler replacement.

In any case, try very hard to unwrap your head from the feeling you have to have an exhaust "system". If you take a real long look, all these "systems" are is an off the shelf muffler and about 6 feet of 2.5 inch (or larger) standard pipe (plus a few odd and assorted hangars and clamps). Typically the mufflers themselves sell for about $80 to $140 yet the corresponding "systems" sell for $300 to $800. IMHO, that makes those few feet of pipe (and bits of miscellaneous hardware) iincredibly expensive parts that do nothing for the bottom end (oftimes actually hurt the bottom) and might add a few (5 to 10) top end horspower at/near the engine redline. But they are user installable (the old DIY appeal), they don't require cutting/hacking up the stock exhaust, they look more massive/impressive than just a mundane muffler, and they provide bragging rights about having an "exhaust system" . And the "system" makers are laughing all the way to their banks.

[TundrastruckDave]

Originally Posted by RockyMtnRay

WRT the TRD system...it does indeed use a dual outlet muffler with two pipes of 2.5 inches each going to the sides of the truck. So, no, that doesn't mute the point since the TRD has an extra and fairly long pipe crossing the entire width of the truck so it can exit just behind the driver's side tire. Partly because there are 2 larger-than-stock pipes and partly because the pipe crossing the truck is quite long, the TRD system has nearly twice the post muffler pipe volume that the Banks system has and nearly 3 times as much volume as the stock system. And so we hear unending comments about losing low end torque with the TRD system...which comes as no surprise to me.

for the clarification... !

I think what I was referring to, with regard to a "mute" point is, that this thread sorta' seemed, to revloved around the idea of... "which"... is better (i.e. Banks or TRD). That said, I called it a "mute" point, because it's kinda' like comparing apples to oranges, with regard to the fact, that the TRD system "does" have a "duel outlet, while the Banks muffler "doesn't". Basically ANYTHING "duel" outlet... hurts power and torque (at least to some degree)... unless it's true duels... right?

Dave

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by TundrastruckDave

Basically ANYTHING "duel" outlet... hurts power and torque (at least to some degree)... unless it's true duels... right?

That's certainly the conclusion I've reached since I've never seen any credible evidence to the contrary and I have read a whole lot of posts that support that conclusion.

However, be very, very careful about interchanging "power" (as measured by horsepower) and "torque" (as measured in foot-pounds of twisting action). Maximum torque (the force that actually accelerates the truck and which we humans can feel) typically occurs in the low to mid RPM range (stock it's at 3400 RPM). By contrast, maximum power (a measure of energy or ability to do work) typically occurs at or very near the redline RPM. Many of these dual outlet systems (including the oft maligned TRD dual system) actually do increase top end horsepower at the same they reduce mid range torque. The reason is that at very high engine RPM, the larger pipe cross section (and dual pipes) are better than stock due to high velocity and high volume of the exhaust gasses.

P.S. "Duels" are what you southern guys do with pistols at 30 paces. At dawn. Over matters of honor. "Duals" are twin somethings....twin exhausts, twin tires, etc.

[ThomasMore66]

As I've been looking around the various forums, there are a lot of them dealing with the exhaust sytem issues. However, this one has been very informative. I'm having to rethink my "uncork it" philosophy with respect to the cat-back sytems. I'm thinking that the headers appears the way to go too w/o any mods on the stock exhaust system. Hey, I like that answer because it's cheaper and now we have some science to go with the decision.

[TundrastruckDave]