TRD Duals vs. Banks Monster Exhaust

[BlueRanger]

Meh, for 130 bones im happy i can hear my engine now....headers next!

[Dude Boy]

Originally Posted by ThomasMore66

Hey, at least you made a decision. I'm still out here on the fence not wanting to waste my money. I came into this discussion really wanting the Bassani; now I don't know what I want to do.

If you want a Bassani system, you should get it! You won't be sorry. You'll have an "awesome" sounding truck - sorry Ray! Mine will pull hills just as well (or better) at 1400-1500 RPM in overdrive than it did with the stock exhaust. I've found that the JBA headers really compliment the Bassani system. Anywhere above 2000 RPM, it really starts to sound "awesome." Oops! This is with a dual in - dual out "x" muffler and all mandrel bent (no wrinkles) stainless tubing. It's 2-1/2" diameter, but don't tell anyone! It will definitely cut the numbers as far as performance and gas mileage. Whether you think it takes horsepower, or torque to run decent 0-60's, this combination will deliver. The last time I tested mine with a G-tech it showed 7.38 seconds for a nearly 5,000 lb. 4x4. The Unichip helps a little bit too. Mileage for 54K (mostly with Bassani system on) is 16.9 MPG overall. That's some rural and in-town, and not a whole lot of freeway driving. Life is too short not to have an "awesome" sounding truck!

[ThomasMore66]

Aggghhh! Even after all we've discussed, there is something in me that wants to see two pipes out the back of the truck. However, I really want more performance, so I think I can maintain the logical approach and start with the headers. I had my head under the hood last night looking at the stock manifolds. I've found some JBA's on line that don't seem to expensive. I have to figure the tax situation first...

I had already convinced myself that the K&N wasn't the approach for the intake side. I used to have one on my Holley carb'd Chevy, but that was different than EFI with MAF sensors, etc. that don't like to be fouled. Besides, I can really hear my stock air filter drawing in the air. I even asked the mechanics at Toyota about it and they thought I was upset by the noise - not me!

It still amazes me how well the 285 cubic inches runs right now. I need to go drive a 2005 to see if the 282 HP makes a difference. I've heard you can really really feel it. I wonder if the '06/'07 redesign will have a bigger engine.

[cubic22]

Another opinion, I guess all this talk about two pipes vs one has gotten me looking at other systems on other trucks. Most of the others I have seen (remember I live in a college town) hit on their gas like its going out of style, whenever they have the slighest encouragement ie, a little honda with a big pipe. The racing sticker on the back of my truck draws the wanna be draggers on saturday night for some reason. I aslo see plenty with one pipe hanging down. Don't get me wrong I love the sound, but its seems similar to putting cards in your spokes as a kid. Just for the sound never lasted.

Keep the sound, but if I go faster I won't hear it anyway.


Still looking for the best combination

[ThomasMore66]

Ray, have you been following any of the STS Turbo discussions in othe forums? I don't doubt the performance numbers, but I was curious what you thought about the air-filtration situation. It looks fishy to me. There are a few claims out there (and on their website) regarding towing, etc. It will clearly void the warantee.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by ThomasMore66

Ray, have you been following any of the STS Turbo discussions in othe forums? I don't doubt the performance numbers, but I was curious what you thought about the air-filtration situation. It looks fishy to me. There are a few claims out there (and on their website) regarding towing, etc. It will clearly void the warantee.

Yeah, the air filtration is pretty dubious...it's basically just a K&N (which is not very effective at filtering out dirt) and it's located where there will be a lot of road dust/dirt and even road salt kicked up. Not to mention a lot of muddy water...or filthy slush for those of use who live in snowy climes. One of the worst aspect about splashed slush is that it often freezes on the truck and that would just about guarantee the STS intake would be frozen shut.

I also have a strong feeling that the turbo itself is too far away from the engine for best results...too much opportunity for cooling and loss of exhaust energy to my eye. There's probably some energy left in the exhaust stream...the handful of folks who have installed an STS reported it does provide some boost...but I'm pretty doubtful about the cost/benefit ratio.

As for towing, generally a turbocharger does make some sense...the requirement is for steady-state high power so spoolup is not much of a factor and there's gobs of continuous exhaust energy to utilize. And the STS system does at least use an intercooler (the lack of which was a huge, huge negative about the TRD charger) so detonation and burned valve issues are minimized. But then there's that suck-in-the-road-dirt intake and the discussion becomes moot.

And then there's the issue of fuel and timing management...and interfacing that with the extremely sophisticated Toyota ECU. If TRD, which has access to Toyota's ECU source code, couldn't get their piggy back ECU to work correctly under all conditions (the alleged reason why TRD stopped selling their S/C), I'm really doubtful that STS can do it. Particularly in light of our member's Unichip experiences which have revealed that each year Tundra requires different piggyback chip fuel & timing maps (and the '03 and newer supercharged engines are really hard to program correctly).

It's been said by several in-the-know people on these forums that the 4.7L engine was never designed for forced induction and IMO that is a fundamental truth. Any attempts to supercharge or turbocharge it are going to be problematic and expensive and, if you're going non-TRD, non-warranteed, you could be looking at a huge cost for a replacement engine (around $16,000 retail from Toyota, not counting several thousand more for installing it).

There aren't many folks here who actually need (versus just want) more power as much as I do with my high altitude, steep mountain towing. I've looked long and hard at all the forced induction options (TRD, STS and SOS) and have decided none of them are a good solution. So I went the traditional, very low risk route of headers, muffler, and lower (higher numerical) axle gearing and am super happy with where it got me.

[ThomasMore66]

Well, there’s something inherently satisfying about big horsepower to most of us. I’ve been tinkering with engines sine I was a kid. I worked on industrial engines as one of my first jobs, and I’ve been around a lot of large industrial engines/turbines in the natural gas business. You just get that warm glow when you start talking big horsepower. So, we all want it in our cars too. Any kind of forced induction is almost always a big help. However blowers aren’t really compressors like the turbo, centrifugal or the screw-type units. I have found that blowers tend to be more forgiving of trash, etc. going through them. I think turbo’s need nice clean filtered air through them.

Clearly the STS guys have lots of nice examples on their web site; there’s even a nice 4-dr Tundra with video. I just wonder what the long-term prognosis for those engines is.

While I don’t want another domestic daily driver, I will have to admit that the Ford, Dodge, and Chevy boys can make a gob of hp with the diesels. I’ve seem some F-250’s that will put up some incredible numbers…and they’re really big too. I'm sure you've seen them in your towing circles - even in CO.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by ThomasMore66

Well, there’s something inherently satisfying about big horsepower to most of us. I’ve been tinkering with engines sine I was a kid. I worked on industrial engines as one of my first jobs, and I’ve been around a lot of large industrial engines/turbines in the natural gas business. You just get that warm glow when you start talking big horsepower. So, we all want it in our cars too. Any kind of forced induction is almost always a big help. However blowers aren’t really compressors like the turbo, centrifugal or the screw-type units. I have found that blowers tend to be more forgiving of trash, etc. going through them. I think turbo’s need nice clean filtered air through them.

Clearly the STS guys have lots of nice examples on their web site; there’s even a nice 4-dr Tundra with video. I just wonder what the long-term prognosis for those engines is.

While I don’t want another domestic daily driver, I will have to admit that the Ford, Dodge, and Chevy boys can make a gob of hp with the diesels. I’ve seem some F-250’s that will put up some incredible numbers…and they’re really big too. I'm sure you've seen them in your towing circles - even in CO.

Not me...I could not give a hoot about big horsepower. Maximum torque, though, I care immensely about.

Actually the diesels like the Duramax, Powerstroke, and Cummins TD don't make all that much horsepower...they're typically somewhere around only 250 to 300 HP. What these engines do make gobs of is torque (typically around 600 ft-lbs) and they make that torque at very low RPM...typically around 2000.

Certainly I see a lot of them here...particularly in Colorado because high torque is critical for mountain towing and because their wastegate controls allow the turbo diesels to maintain sea-level torque at pretty high altitude. 5th Wheel trailers are very popular here and the tow vehicle is always a diesel pickup.

I bought my truck specifically to have a better tow vehicle. In towing circles, horsepower numbers are just about worthless; the number that counts is maximum torque because (1) that rating is measured at an engine RPM that's usable in steady towing and (2) is the best metric for an engine's ability to move a heavy rig.

I spent about $1500 to regear my truck for exactly one reason: to be able to have the engine at maximum torque RPM when running with OD off at my preferred towing speed of 65 mph. And the $1400 I spent on headers and muffler also had exactly one purpose: to get the most increase in maximum torque at about 3200 to 3400 RPM.

I have no idea what my truck's horsepower is now. And, to be honest, I have zero interest in knowing it because I hardly ever take the engine over 4000 RPM much less get it close to the redline RPM where horsepower is measured.

[treystoys]

Hey guys...

I read the thread through and through, but didn't find any mention of Y pipes at all. I'm one of the folks who with the advice of V8toilet went with a replacement muffler only, and the $150 or so spend on the having a single in, single out 2.5" 18" long Magnaflow has been a good descision. I'm very close to purchasing the JBA headers, but was really wondering about the factory Y pipe. It was stated above that the factory system has two negatives, the manifolds, and the muffler, but no mention of the stock Y pipe. Are you guys installing the JBAs with or without their Y pipe, and if not, I'm curious to know why. In my opinion, the factory joining of the two pipes seems to be a big "crimp" in the system. My descision is going to be based very much on what you guys reply, so any opinions and facts are what I'm looking for. Thanks

Trey

[treystoys]

I guess another quiestion going with the above, is would it even be worth getting the headers w/o the free flowing y pipe...

thanks again

Trey

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by treystoys

I guess another quiestion going with the above, is would it even be worth getting the headers w/o the free flowing y pipe...

thanks again

Trey

Totally forget any replacement Y pipe and just get the headers (and muffler). Not one TS member has ever produced any quantitative evidence (like a Dyno run) that any replacement Y pipe improved torque. Furthermore, even a JBA Customer service rep told one of our members that some customers had reported their Y pipe "might make 2 or 3 more horsepower" than stock. Lets put that into perspective: 2 or 3 horsepower is less than the run-to-run variation of any dyno so its basically nothing...and it's measured at redline RPM where hardly anyone runs their engine. Furthermore, I strongly suspect there are a lot of JBA Y pipe users who have actually experienced a torque loss!

The stock Y pipe looks (and I really emphasize looks) crimped/pinched/restricted if you don't understand fluid dynamics and concepts like laminar flow and venturi effects. By comparison, the JBA Y pipe (and knockoffs like SS Autochrome) may look less restricted, but to those of us who understand fluid dynamics, the JBA has all the hallmarks of a junction that will have high turbulence (which really robs power) and very, very poor gas stream blending.

The bottom line is the JBA pipe looks to those without an in depth education in Physics (particularly the physics of gasses ) that it ought to have less restriction....but in reality is no better than the stock Y pipe and may actually be worse under some RPM conditions. Personally, I think that JBA makes their Y pipe just to tap into a market that doesn't understand fluid dynamics well enough to recognize that the stock Y pipe is truly a very good design.

I for one will never replace the factory Y with its excellent fluid dynamics inspired design with the much worse designs of the aftermarket companies including JBA.

But if you want to spend a good chunk of cash for a Y pipe that you want to believe will work better (though it has never been proven to do so and has good scientific basis for not doing so), all I can say is its your money. By comparison, there are numerous dyno reports and literally hundreds of member reports that support the fact that the JBA headers do indeed provide about a 25 ft-lb increase in maximum torque.

So get the headers and forget the Y pipe.

[treystoys]

Thanks Ray...

Thats exactly what I was looking for...thats money in my pocket!

So where is the best place to buy the headers...price wise I'm speaking of.

Thanks

Trey

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by treystoys

Thanks Ray...

Thats exactly what I was looking for...thats money in my pocket!

Welcome. You're a smart guy. No need to spend a good chunk of money for something that no-one has proven to improve your truck's performance!

So where is the best place to buy the headers...price wise I'm speaking of.

TS.COM store is where I bought mine. Prices are competitive (better than most), TundraSoul (TS.COM founder and administrator) will jump in and solve things immediately if there's a glitch in the order (or at JBA), and orders through the TS.COM store help support this website. I've learned to mostly avoid the online retailers with the lowest prices for a common product...more often than not their customer service is just horrible and they tend to have exorbitant shipping charges.