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Engine & DrivetrainDiscussions about the engine and drivetrain of your vehicle.
This is a discussion thread titled "Amsoil vs Red Line vs ???", within the Engine & Drivetrain forum, part of the Technical & Vehicle Assistance Forums category.
I see a lot of comments here about Amsoil, I am curious if anyone is using Red Line?
I have found an interesting article here that discusses "real world" performance vs Lab tests and suggests Red Line out performs Amsoil in real world application. Here is the link http://home.satx.rr.com/drath555/78209/oil.html
I am curious if anyone here has access to testing facilities that would care to perform Four Ball Wear Test on used oil at the end of the drain interval and share the results with the group. I am very interested in testing QS Full Synthetic since you can pick it up at any Wal-Mart for under $4 a quart. In addition I am curious about Amsoil and Red Line after reading this article.
I don't see a big cost difference between Amsoil, QS Full Synthetic, and QS Dino oil at 12,000 miles a year using the oil mfg recommended drain intervals.
If you're considering Quaker State products, you might also include Pennzoil products. They're the same company, Pennzoil-Quaker State Co., and I've seen nothing to indicate that the products are different.
I believe that their filters are made by Fram, and they wouldn't be my choice.
That's interesting reading. I was about to make the switch to Amsoil myself but I came across this: http://www.synlube.com/synthetic.htm
That is also interesting reading. Especially this part:
Almost Synthetic is Synthetic even when it is Petroleum.
Well, if you think that Mobil or (ExxonMobil now) is less than honest, or even down right deceptive, that is not the worst of it.
Most other (brands) of Synthetics such as Shell, Castrol, Amsoil, etc are NOT "synthetic" at all, at least by the definition used for years by chemists in all chemical companies around the World.
Some years ago SHELL in Europe and specifically in then West Germany introduced Motor Oils that were manufactured from UHVI Petroleum Base stock that although made from conventional crude oil, was subjected to additional processing not common on "normal" or "typical" Base Oil production. These (UHVI = Ultra High Viscosity Index) Base Stock containing Motor Oils were labeled by SHELL as "Synthetic".
Companies like MOTUL, MOBIL, AGIP in their respective markets did not like that labeling one bit, because the SHELL "synthetic" products were sold for substantially less then their own Brands of "Synthetic" Labeled products.
So years of lawsuits court orders, appeals, contra-suits clogged the courts of several European countries. At different times and in different countries contrary decisions or judgements were made. What was "synthetic" in one country on one day was "not synthetic" in another country at the same time. A real confusion for a region of globe that aimed to "unify" in the near future and become one great continent of "EURO".
What finally evolved from all this confusion was that the label term "Synthetic" is a marketing term, and therefore it is up to the "marketer" of the oil, to define what "synthetic" is.
It's worth reading the rest of the info on that site too. Talk about extended drain!
I hope all of the oil gurus will read this and comment.
Rod
Originally posted by mzoerner I see a lot of comments here about Amsoil, I am curious if anyone is using Red Line?
I have found an interesting article here that discusses "real world" performance vs Lab tests and suggests Red Line out performs Amsoil in real world application. Here is the link http://home.satx.rr.com/drath555/78209/oil.html
Obviously, anyone is welcome to run any test they want on their oil. That said, I think everyone should take a step back and ask themselves how ludicrous of a statement it is when someone claims their lubrication product gets better as it gets contaminated. I mean, if that's the case then we should all re-bottle and market the contaminated version -- especially if it's better than the new stuff... Are people really that gullible?
~ Fred
__________________
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
Originally posted by mzoerner And what is your technical background Fred?
Well, I don't have any advanced degrees in chemistry so if that is what you were hoping for you got your wish...
I'm currently in software, but since you asked for my technical background it is mechanical engineering. Prior to that, nuclear power on submarines.
How is my background relevant to a simple observation about a blatantly ludicrous claim? If they want to say it's as good as, or perhaps even better, then let the debate begin -- everyone says that about their products anyway. But to say your product gets 'better' as it gets contaminated, that's crossing the line of believable.
~ Fred
__________________
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
Not really hoping for anything Fred, just curious what your background is to make such a bold comment about their product.
It is not uncommon for tooling used in modern high volume production to be made so that it starts on one side of the desired value of a feature and as it wears it actually gets closer to the desired value, and eventually gets farther away again as it continues to wear. Some biological systems also tend to start at a less than optimal value and as time progresses they get closer to the desired target and possible even over shoot only to drop back again through the desired point before they become undesirable again. Although these are not pure examples of "contamination" they are just a couple of the many systems, which actually become better as the system is used.
I am not a chemist either but would certainly seem possible that additives could be put in the oil that may synthesize with undesirable by-products to produce desirable compounds. If its not already being done, just remember you read about it here first!
My real point of the original post was to promote discussion and investigations into just how good are some of the more common oils at the end of their typical service life.
Maybe we could as a group, challenge Red Line to fund independent testing on their products and claims as compaired with Amsoil, Mobil 1 and a few others after the oil has been in use.
Originally posted by mzoerner It is not uncommon for tooling used in modern high volume production to be made so that it starts on one side of the desired value of a feature and as it wears it actually gets closer to the desired value, and eventually gets farther away again as it continues to wear. Some biological systems also tend to start at a less than optimal value and as time progresses they get closer to the desired target and possible even over shoot only to drop back again through the desired point before they become undesirable again. Although these are not pure examples of "contamination" they are just a couple of the many systems, which actually become better as the system is used.
I am actually familiar with the concept. I am not sure where it was introduced, but it has particular benefits in nuclear power. In order to load more fuel into a new reactor to increase it's life, additional elements are added which are typically considered 'poisons'. They are called this because they attract and absorb the neutrons that the fuel needs for fission. The art is to overload the fuel with the addition of poisons such that as the poisons deplete, the fuel level (through the same operational use of the reactor that depleted the poisons) has also reduced, but more specifically to the desired amount. Can't have too much fuel in there without a sufficient means of forcing a shutdown...
Quote:
My real point of the original post was to promote discussion and investigations into just how good are some of the more common oils at the end of their typical service life.
Maybe we could as a group, challenge Red Line to fund independent testing on their products and claims as compaired with Amsoil, Mobil 1 and a few others after the oil has been in use.
Rather than challenge Redline, or any other company that likely wouldn't give us the time of day, I suggest we simply submit our oil for analysis on a regular basis. This way you know for a documented fact whether or not your oil of choice is working to your satisfaction in your specific engine. I'll look forward to George getting wind of this thread and posting his comments here...
~ Fred
__________________
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
I can't add anything to the considered discussion previous but the original poster asked if anyone had used RedLine.
Yes, I have. Since first oil change. The engine is still running smoothly. The "tappet" noise on start-up is gone since I switched to RedLine, though I couldn't say whether that's due to the oil, engine break-in or alignment of the planets.
BTW, I bought directly from RedLine. $7.95/quart, as I remember, (in quarts or gallons) and shipped directly to me from RedLine. Arrived two days after the order was placed.
I use their transmission fluid and gear oil as well.
I've sent in several - They will vary greatly depending upon your mileage and type of air filter. When your vehicle is new you will have a lot of crud left in the engine during the manufacturing process, which will give you a slightly higher silicon, iron and aluminum readings. If you have an oil cooler your copper readings will be real high as your cooler core is made of copper and the copper will leach until it becomes highly oxidized. If you go to extended drains the contaminants will also continue to accumulate so you have to divide your mileage by 3 or 5K and then divide that number into your contaminant readings to see how well everything is working.
Here's my last test with 0-30 Amsoil:
Viscosity - 11.7 - showing it is still a 30-oil grade.
% Oxidation - 45.5 - shows its still low acid formation
Total Base Number - 6.8 - shows good lubricating properties
I have the magnetic drain plug, which doesn't seem to help with my iron readings? This reading can be influenced by your oil collection method. I suck it out of the dipstick holder, which is the preferred method, but it's still a bit high. Everything else is well within accepted limits and the conclusion is that my oil is still good to go for another 6 months. They keep telling me that so I know one can run this 0-30 Amsoil forever but I dump once every year to 18 months for piece of mind. I've got one more pre-paid oil sample bottle and after this next sample I'm not going to sample anymore as to me it's just an added expense and more profit to the oil retailers.
A neighbor to my father ran Amsoil in his FORD Crown Victoria for seven (7) years and never did change the oil - only changed the Amsoil oil filter every 6 months. I'm absolutely positive that he would have run the oil many more years but at the end of the seventh year of ownership he died at the age of 78. I should add that he purchased the Crown Vic used with around 40K on it. Have no idea how many miles he drove in a year, but I wouldn’t think it would be more than 8 to 10K.
As to which is the best synthetic? I personally think there's not much of a difference between the major brands. Amsoil, Redline, Mobil 1 and others manufacture top quality products and they will provide what-ever performance we, as consumers, seek.
The total base number, TBN, of the oil is the alkaline level. A slight alkaline condition is needed for to prevent acid corrosion of the metal caused by the combination of combustion byproducts and moisture.
I've used diesel cylinder lube oil with 70 TBN with heavy fuel oil of 2.5% sulfur. The TBN is matched to the acid-generating potential of the fuel.
... I dump once every year to 18 months for piece of mind. I've got one more pre-paid oil sample bottle and after this next sample I'm not going to sample anymore as to me it's just an added expense and more profit to the oil retailers.
Joe, you make a good point. The most cost-effective solution for extended drains with AMSOIL synthetics is to use an oil analysis program in lieu of an oil drain. Basically, you trade the expense of an oil drain for the expense of analysis. The analysis is cheaper, and is much more informative. However, if you are sampling with regular frequency AND draining before the analysis recommends, then it is not cost-effective. Unless you can convince yourself to trust the analysis results and leave the oil in service, you are right to plan on discontinuing your analysis program. Keep in mind that AMSOIL warranties the products for up to 1 year without any analysis, and up to 35K miles for the 0W-30 you run. Simple time intervals are easy to follow. As always, whatever works best for you.
~ Fred
__________________
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
The total base number, TBN, of the oil is the alkaline level. A slight alkaline condition is needed for to prevent acid corrosion of the metal caused by the combination of combustion byproducts and moisture.
I've used diesel cylinder lube oil with 70 TBN with heavy fuel oil of 2.5% sulfur. The TBN is matched to the acid-generating potential of the fuel.
Ken
Very true, I guess I didn't make myself very clear. To me the TBN measures the alkalinity lubricant reserve, which measures the lubricant service life. That's what I meant by "shows good lubricating properties". Bad choice of words - thanks for clarifying that. High sulfur fuel will cause that reading for sure as will overheating and over-extended oil drains.
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Amsoil vs Red Line vs ???
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