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Engine & DrivetrainDiscussions about the engine and drivetrain of your vehicle.
This is a discussion thread titled "When is synthetic oil NOT synthetic?", within the Engine & Drivetrain forum, part of the Technical & Vehicle Assistance Forums category.
I was about to make the switch to Amsoil until I came across this: http://www.synlube.com/synthetic.htm
It's interesting reading. Especially this part:
Almost Synthetic is Synthetic even when it is Petroleum.
Well, if you think that Mobil or (ExxonMobil now) is less than honest, or even down right deceptive, that is not the worst of it.
Most other (brands) of Synthetics such as Shell, Castrol, Amsoil, etc are NOT "synthetic" at all, at least by the definition used for years by chemists in all chemical companies around the World.
Some years ago SHELL in Europe and specifically in then West Germany introduced Motor Oils that were manufactured from UHVI Petroleum Base stock that although made from conventional crude oil, was subjected to additional processing not common on "normal" or "typical" Base Oil production. These (UHVI = Ultra High Viscosity Index) Base Stock containing Motor Oils were labeled by SHELL as "Synthetic".
Companies like MOTUL, MOBIL, AGIP in their respective markets did not like that labeling one bit, because the SHELL "synthetic" products were sold for substantially less then their own Brands of "Synthetic" Labeled products.
So years of lawsuits court orders, appeals, contra-suits clogged the courts of several European countries. At different times and in different countries contrary decisions or judgements were made. What was "synthetic" in one country on one day was "not synthetic" in another country at the same time. A real confusion for a region of globe that aimed to "unify" in the near future and become one great continent of "EURO".
What finally evolved from all this confusion was that the label term "Synthetic" is a marketing term, and therefore it is up to the "marketer" of the oil, to define what "synthetic" is.
Who can you trust?
It's worth reading the rest of the info on that site too. Talk about extended drain!
I hope all of the oil gurus will read this and comment.
Rod
Some of their products were "improved" in Y2K - Seems like everyone has a marketing strategy to go along with the prices they charge and for which the consumer will pay. I'm not smart enough to understand all the claims in that piece but I do know from personal experience that Amsoil and Mobil 1 5-30 in an engine left outside overnight in minus 40 degrees F (-40') will spin over sufficiently whereas dino 5-30 will groan and moan to beat hell and if it doesn't kick off right now - you better have a good set of 2 or 4 gauge jumper cables for a jump from one of the vehicles running synthetics. (Of course, a poorly maintained vehicle won't start in those conditions regardless of the type of motor oil used and yes, good ole dino in straight 10 weight will work pretty damn good too.)
What? Not everyone has access to an electrical outlet for head bolt heaters? What's this world coming to? Ever hear of plugging your head bolt heater into a current bush? - The Canadians doooo- I think.
I don't quite follow the "if you think Mobil is deceptive" comment. Mobil has been marketing its full synthetics as chemically produced synthetics. Companies like Castrol came out with Syntec as a synthetic, which it was as a PAO based lubricant. Then Castrol quietly switched the product over from PAO to Group III base stock without so much as a whisper that the change had taken place. That has a deceptive ring to it..
Now, again, what was the Mobil deceptive action, as I don't follow.. Mobil's synthetic Mobil 1 and Delvac 1 are still PAO based full synthetics by the traditional definition of synthetic, just as Amsoil, Red Line, etc. continue to be.
George Morrison
Rod,
That article you showed us has some interesting historical facts, but then is full of conjecture.
Does anyone have a quart of "Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™" handy? What does the fine print on the label say? In any case, if Syn-Lube cared enough to be accurate, they would have tested Mobil1 for petroleum content, not made wild guesses about the proportion of carrier oil. Castrol's switch to highly refined petroleum oil is old news to most of us.
Syn-Lube could have tested all the oil brands that they smeared, but they didn't bother. They just printed a lot of partial facts and used guesswork from there on.
I'm not defending anything except seeking the truth. Syn-Lube's half-truths do not qualify. (Does anyone else think Syn-Lube's diatribe sounds like a politician's speech--full of smoke, fury, and half-truths?)
Rod, why don't you use Syn-Lube's 4-Ever oil. Never change it, do regular lab tests, and tell us how your engine fares?
The synthetic oil that I like the best so far is Penzoil 5-30W. It really makes the engine purr like a kitten from start to finish, hot or real cold out. No valve ticking, just a quiet running engine. Other brands of synthetic that I've tried several times before but don't measure up as well are: Mobil 1, Valvoline, Quaker State, and Castrol. I can't comment on the Amsoil or Redline products, because I've never used them. None of the Dealers or oil change places around here carry those products.
I think Pennzoil bought Quaker State a couple of years ago. I've used both products and found Pennzoil synthetic to run better in my vehicles. Of the synthetics that I've used, I'd have to say that Quaker State was about the same as Mobil 1, Valvoline and Castrol in performance. You have to be careful when talking about who owns who. In the tire world Bridgestone owns Firestone; Michelin owns Kelley and BFG. You certainly don't want to confuse each company's tire as being the same because of the parent company. They aren't the same. Production lines may be separated by thousands of miles, or even countries.
"Pennzoil-Quaker State Company was formed in late 1998 through the spin-off of Pennzoil Company's marketing, manufacturing and fast oil change businesses (Pennzoil Products Group) and the simultaneous merger of all of Quaker State Corporation into Pennzoil Products Group....In addition, the new company owns Jiffy Lube International...." http://www.pennzoil-quakerstate.com/...verview_fs.htm
I certainly didn’t mean to present this as gospel. It’s just one more piece of information. Interesting reading. Just goes to show that it takes some reading and research to try and see through all the smoke and mirrors out there.
The point was that, until reading this and several other articles concerning synthetic oil, I had no idea that companies could call an oil “fully synthetic” when it wasn’t fully synthetic the way I understood fully synthetic to mean.
This site in particular is interesting just for the sheer volume of information on it. But who knows how much of it is fact. On one part it says:
Most other (brands) of Synthetics such as Shell, Castrol, Amsoil, etc are NOT "synthetic" at all, at least by the definition used for years by chemists in all chemical companies around the World.
On another page it says:
Premium Synthetic Oils are available from small companies such as AMSOIL, Eon, Red Line, Royal Purple.
I guess you have to take it all with a grain of salt.
As for myself, I’m using Mobil 1 oil and oil filters in my vehicles right now and it’s going to take a lot more reading and convincing to get me to change. It would also be a lot bigger leap of faith than I am willing to make to leave anyone’s oil in my vehicle for ten years without changing.
Rod
I was going to PM this to you but I think it should be posted for all to see.
If you will follow the link (I know there is a lot to read on that page) you will see a section that explains that Mobil 1 contains a carrier oil for the additives that is petroleum oil, not synthetic. They don't say how much, but make the point that they consider Mobil saying that the oil is "fully synthetic" when it contains some petroleum oil to be deceptive. I don't know if I would go that far, but I surely didn't know that until I read that on this web site.
In doing more research (I called 1-800-ASK-MOBIL) I was told that in the past the oil may have contained carrier oil that was petroeum oil, but they use only synthetic carrier oil now.
So they may have been "deceptive" in the past but, if what I was told is true, the oil is now trully "fully synthetic". So now it seems that the people saying these things about their competition may be the ones who are being "deceptive".
Too much BS and not enough truth in the world!
Rod
I think it is pretty evident where the deception is coming from.
Additionally, even when Mobil1 had a conventional carrier oil for the additives it should still have been considered a full synthetic. They are simply trying to split hairs. If you want the truth about whether or not an oil contains petroleum products, find the MSDS for the product and read for yourself...
As for their slander against AMSOIL, it is all off-base. Here is what AMSOIL says, and I challenge you to prove otherwise before spreading additional slanderous comments:
"The Company of Firsts
AMSOIL has a documented history of innovation and leadership.
First to develop an API-rated 100 percent synthetic motor oil.
First to introduce the concept of "extended drain intervals" with a recommended 25,000-mile/1-year drain interval.
First U.S. company to utilize the NOACK volatility test as a standard of performance excellence.
First to produce synthetic motor oils for diesel engines, racing engines, turbo and marine engines.
First to introduce synthetic oils that legitimately contribute to improving fuel efficiency.
First to manufacture synthetic gear lube for automotive use.
First to manufacture a 100:1 pre-mix synthetic 2-cycle oil.
First to manufacture a synthetic automatic transmission fluid for automotive use."
FWIW, I happen to pretty knowledgeable on the subject and there are only two other brands that I have any respect for. That's Redline and Mobil1.
Regards,
~ Fred
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When is synthetic oil NOT synthetic?
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