Switched Transmission to Synthetic - Something is Wrong

[Picasso]

A few days ago I did a complete 16qt flush of my transmission at 72k miles and changed over to Mobil1 synthetic ATF. I gave my truck an Auto-RX treatment prior to the flush. My truck now runs and feels AWFUL.

I have a fairly good idea of how this is going to end but I would like some opinions of what has gone wrong and what can be done or recommended to fix this.

Here is what is happening:
1. When starting from a stop, the transmission is now transferring about 65% of the power from the engine compared to before the flush. While driving in town today, I noticed that everyone is passing me when starting from a stoplight. Previously, I would be accelerating the same speed as most of the other cars. To accelerate with the other cars, I have to rev my engine about 40% faster than before.

2. The transmission has always felt like it disengaged whenever I took my foot off the accelerator at speeds of less than 15mph. Now it FEELS like this is happening at all speeds. At highway speeds, the tach decreases by about 200 rpm whenever I take my foot off the gas. It has always done this but now it can really be felt. At speeds below 35mph the tach will drop to about 900 rpm whenever I let off of the gas no matter how fast it was going before. Additionally, whenever I come to a stop, it feels like the engine is going to die. This is by far the most unnerving symptom. While in drive, the engine idles at 500 rpm and feels very smooth.

3. The OD wouldn’t normally come on until I reached 45mph. Now it will come on at 30mph.

4. There is a noticeable feeling of roughness when driving the truck, mostly at highway speeds, that wasn’t there before. This can be felt through the steering wheel, the floorboards, and pretty much everywhere else. It is best described as a buzzing like frequency vibration.

5. My engine has pinged under acceleration a few times since the flush. Not loudly and for only a second or two each time. ?????????

Other significant items:
- The day after the flush, I accelerated from a stop and the transmission didn’t engage until the engine reached 1200 rpm. It did this one more time at 900 rpm before I got home. Checked the fluid level while idling in park and it only reached the bottom of the dipstick. This is odd in that it reached the top of the HOT markings when I measured it that morning just like it did the day before. Ended up putting in 1.75 quarts that day and another full quart the following day. I drove my truck 15 miles between the flush and adding the fluid.

- There was a brown tinted milky substance on one of the bolts that secured the screen, a picture of which is in the Transmission Flush album in my gallery. This substance may have also come out with the old fluid during the flush, but I initially took it as just a little bubbling.

- All four magnets were completely covered with a moderate amount of very fine metal particles similar to what I found on the drain plug magnet when I changed the differential fluid. There was also a layer of metal particles that had settled into the grooves at the bottom of the drain pan.

- The screen casing was covered in a very light film of metal particles that came off using a spray can of brake cleaner.

- A dealership did a flush at 30k and the old fluid that came out a few days ago was bright red.

- The removal and reinstallation of the drain pan went easily. The screen looked very clean so I didn’t do anything to it. The three cork gaskets that fit between the screen element and the valve body weren’t touched.

- My tranny was built in Japan.


I have never liked how my transmission felt particularly while driving in town but I didn't think this would happen. My truck is striclty an on road vehicle and I am not a spirited driver. It's had all of it required maintenance so this has surprised me.

I was hoping to do this flush with synthetic and be done with this for a while, but it doesn’t look like this is going to happen. I am still driving the truck and its condition has remained the same. I did get 19.9 mpg on a 270 mile trip yesterday which surprised me a little.

If anyone has some idea of what I did to my tranny or what can be done about this, I would be receptive to hearing it. I am going to keep my truck so I am just trying to get a little situational awareness before I set out to get it fixed.

Many thanks,


Paul

[THarms]

It sounds like you are still low on ATF fluid.

Flushing your transmission should not effect how your engine runs.

[RitcheyRch]

I second that. You need to make sure you are checking the fluid level when the vehicle is warm and the transmission in Neutral.

Originally Posted by THarms

It sounds like you are still low on ATF fluid.

Flushing your transmission should not effect how your engine runs.

[Jack Burton]

I'm sure Paul knows how to check the tranny level but for anyone else who doesn't and has a '00-'04, see this HERE

[Picasso]

Originally Posted by RitcheyRch

I second that. You need to make sure you are checking the fluid level when the vehicle is warm and the transmission in Neutral.

For the past couple of days the fluid level has measured up to the HOT markings on the dipstick with the engine warm and while idling in Park. I'll certainly give it a try but I didn't think measuring it in Neutral would give a different reading.

Thanks for the help.

[gquenstedt]

You know how you bleed brakes with a piece of clear hose submerged in a container of brake fluid? I might try that with the line coming out of the transmission cooler going back to the transmission to see if there are air bubbles in it. One time I took apart a riding lawnmower transmission and when i put it back together it ran really rough, and had me worried. But after several days of driving it, it began to smooth out until it got back to normal. I think the fluid hadn't gotten into all the parts yet. Just my thoughts...i'm not a mechanic or anything. Good Luck

[Tones]

I have used Mobil 1 ATF in my truck for two drain and fills so far, with no ill effects; the transmission runs great. Thus, I would tend to eliminate the fluid also.

You wrote a lot about the removal and cleaning of the drain pan, but not about how your flush went. Can you describe how you did that? The only thing I can think of at this time is that you ran the transmission low on fluid until you discovered it low on the dipstick. Sounds like you had air in the system due to the flush that had not worked its way to the sump. 1.75 quarts out of 4 is pretty significant.

[Picasso]

Originally Posted by Tones

I have used Mobil 1 ATF in my truck for two drain and fills so far, with no ill effects; the transmission runs great. Thus, I would tend to eliminate the fluid also.

You wrote a lot about the removal and cleaning of the drain pan, but not about how your flush went. Can you describe how you did that? The only thing I can think of at this time is that you ran the transmission low on fluid until you discovered it low on the dipstick. Sounds like you had air in the system due to the flush that had not worked its way to the sump. 1.75 quarts out of 4 is pretty significant.

I unhooked the upper line running from the stock transmission cooler that is in front of the radiator and the AC condenser and attached a clear tube to the cooler. I then started the engine until 2 qts poured into an 8 qt pan. I then filled the transmission with 2 qts of new fluid through the dipstick tube. Repeated this 5 more times. On one occasion I did briefly get bubbles in the clear tube coming from the cooler at the very end of one of the purges.

I cycled through all of the gears after completing the flush and then checked the fluid level with the engine running and the transmission in Park. The fluid level reached the Hot marks on the dipstick. Driving home, which was mostly on a highway, I was surpised in that it certainly didn't feel like its performance had improved. Could there be an air bubble somewhere in the transmission?

I did notice an odd sound that may provide another clue as to what is going on.
- When shifting from Reverse to Drive, with my foot on the brake, a distinct metal scrunch followed by a single tap sound a half second later can be heard from outside the vehicle. This doesn't happen when shifting from Neutral to Drive, or from Drive to Reverse, but only Reverse to Drive. This happens every time. Additionally, the shift into Reverse gear is much firmer than when shifting into Drive.

Today I checked the fluid level again and it hasn't changed. It's at the same level on the stick as yesterday with the engine cold or hot.

Many thanks.


Paul

[jcharlt2]

I'm curious to know how you completely drain, flush and add newtransmission fluid to you auto. transmission. I'm new to this site and need all the help I can get. My use name is jcharlt2.

Thanks

[denverbikeguy]

Wait, did you see the metal in the pan before or after your flush? That part wasn't quite clear.

Is your fluid like new now, or is it discolored/burnt-smelling?

Hopefully you didn't cook the tranny somehow, but like you said, I think you know where this might be headed. If it's any consolation, I did a worse one on my first Tundra - went mud bogging, and found out you really shouldn't hit mud pits at 50mph repeatedly. The trans got so hot that the sudden cooling effect from the mud/water sucked the stuff in past the pressure seal. The instant contamination of the fluid and every part of the tranny basically caused my clutch plates to get so hot in the next mile of driving that they fused themselves together. I had the dealership save those for me when the new transmission got put in.......

[Tones]

Originally Posted by jcharlt2

I'm curious to know how you completely drain, flush and add newtransmission fluid ...

Welcome to the forum jcharlt2. I have not been here all that long myself.

The transmission has a drain plug, just like for oil. To do a drain and fill of the transmission, just pull the plug, drain the fluid, reinsert plug, and refill through the dipstick tube. This is what most people do to maintain the transmission every 15-30k miles and the most I would recommend if you are a beginner. The Tundra has a screen which does not normally get clogged like the filter on domestics.

When I did my first drain and fill on my 2001 V8, I measured the drained fluid so that I knew what to replace it with. It takes 4 quarts. Mine uses the Dexron III fluid, so I have used Mobil 1 synthetic ATF with good results. I like to do mine every 15k, which comes out to every 2 years. Newer transmissions are more difficult because they do not have a dipstick tube to refill with.

Note that a drain and fill does not replace all the fluid, there is still some in the torque converter, and cooler. A flush is required to replace all of the fluid, and is usually done through the transmission cooler lines the way Picasso has done his.

[Remerson]

Paul, I'm really worried about that metal you said you found in the pan. Any metal in the pan is bad. Particularly considering the history of 2000-2002 Tundra Transmissions. How much metal was there when you pulled the pan? It might just be worth pulling the pan again to see if you have more metal there now. Sure sounds possible you are a victim of the overdrive orbital planetary gear disintegration. I really hope this is not the case...

Good luck with this problem, I am sure someone here will find the solution for you.

[Picasso]

Originally Posted by Remerson

Paul, I'm really worried about that metal you said you found in the pan. Any metal in the pan is bad. Particularly considering the history of 2000-2002 Tundra Transmissions. How much metal was there when you pulled the pan? It might just be worth pulling the pan again to see if you have more metal there now. Sure sounds possible you are a victim of the overdrive orbital planetary gear disintegration. I really hope this is not the case...

Good luck with this problem, I am sure someone here will find the solution for you.

Each magnet had about a 2 millimeter thick layer of very fine metal. There was also more fine metal that had settled in the four recessed areas that the magnets are placed, as well as in two of the grooves that are in the bottom of the pan. I found it odd in that all of the metal particles didn't stick to the magnets. Wish I had thought enough to take a picture of this with my digital camera.

I took my truck to a dealership for a diagnostic and when they dropped the pan, they said they found "chunks of metal." Those were the service reps words and I didn't speak with the tech directly, so it is a little unclear what size the chunks really were. Since I cleaned my pan when I dropped it right before I did the flush, anything in the pan is new. Their diagnosis was that the torque converter was the source of the metal. Not sure how this can be determined by looking at the metal in the pan if that's what they did, but the torque converter failing does fall in line with the symptoms that my truck is exhibiting. They also test drove it and I was given the impression that a scanner was hooked up at some point as well. I did talk directly with the tech before they dropped the pan to the describe the symptoms since he didn't think anything was wrong when he test drove it. The tech seemed receptive to what I had to say but I got the impression that he was looking for the transmission to slip or do something really bad and really obvious, which it doesn't do. I can certainly tell the difference between how it drove before and after the flush since it's my truck but the tech didn't have the same opportunity. This surprised me a bit, but I can't say that I expect a Toyota tech to know how each Toyota vehicle should feel from memory.

A new tranny is on the way and is expected to arrive in a few days. I am fortunate in that the same dealership did my 30k service, which included a transmission flush, and it is also the one that I reported an irregularity in the operation of my transmission during the warranty period. Although nothing was found at the time, this was at least documented.

The service rep said that they are going to call Toyota to see if they can get them to cover any of this. I'm not expecting this to happen but who knows? Maybe I'll be surprised. I might just win that $300+ million powerball lottery too.

The strangest thing about this is that nothing has completely failed, it's been a slow leak type of failure. I just wish I new WTF happened.

Thanks for the help.


Paul

[Remerson]

Sure sounds like the tranny to me, I had the same problem at about 65,000. I was lucky enough to have found an excellent service manager who immediately told me Toyota has been having alot of problems with these transmissions. He said that no Toyota owner should ever have to worry about a component failing just after warranty expiration. He then gave me a car to use and told me to pick up my truck in two days. Each dealership has "Goodwill allowances" from Toyota Corp. to handle such problems as these. If your dealership has some of this goodwill money left - then you are probably in luck!

Good Luck! You still have the most reliable truck on the market.

~Bob

[slowyota]

Don't know if this helps..but my dad had the exact same thing happen in his '95 F-250 a few years ago. Basically the ford rep at that time told him that a trans flush can cause more problems than it prevents. Basically the clutch packs disentegrated becauses of the new fluid.
Probably was going to have trans problems later on down the road. But the new fluid, and the cleaning of the clutch packs from the new fluid, sped up the trans failure.
Do keep us in the loop as to what failed...I have a '00 with 80k and I haven't done a flush yet..makes me nervous now. Haven't had any trans problems either.