FIRST PICS!! New Tundra intake manifold, dual plenum

[ARGAMEMENON]

Originally Posted by Lextreme

I would not call 27% increase flow as tons more. All those grain are theoritical not actual grain. Its basically a quarter more flow. I think the community would like to duplicate the test and to validate how you come to the conclussion of a quarter increase in air flow. I think disclosing the method of testing is essential to the community. I personally would like to duplicate the testing and flow numbers.

Budget is one thing.. smart money is another. Besides the money issue, I would imagine down time would be quite long. Since not too many tuner have any experience with Tundra. So most tuners would tune and learn and so on.

So do you see 27% as a bogus claim, or not that much? It seems like you're confused. How many other manifolds have been tested and proven to flow 25% or better than stock. 27% increase is indeed a large amount.
Seeing how it flows 27% is not too far out of grasp when you take into account what were dealing with. The stock manifold (for a truck none the less) has runners somewhere around 25"+, which wrap around over 270 degrees. This manifold has 4" runners, and go straight down.
Theoretical or not, are you telling me that swapping out the stock intake in favor of this one, on a boosted v8 making decent power, will not result in a nice chunk of added power?
There is no huge secret to flow testing, It was done at 28", which is the standard, and it was noted that numbers were taken at 4500 rpm. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
As far as smart money goes, there is nothing else available for these motors. Here is an option for the community that otherwise did not exhist, and has the testing to back it up. More than you can say for a lot of aftermarket parts? What more can you ask for?
I guess I don't see what all the huff is about David.

[Lextreme]

Cowboy:
Honestly I wouldn't want one if you give it to me. I would need to come up another $4,000 Plus to make it work. I noticed you are getting little personal. I hope you can keep this conservation professional and in a mature manner. If you can not keep that, then there is no reason for us to continue this interesting conversation.

ARGAMEMENON:
Also known as JDMFantasy.... part of the gang... Nice seeing you here too. When will Marty coming into this consersation?

[Justang]

Holy crap! That's the price of the intake?!?!?!?!?!?

On my Tundra I have a plastic intake. Not much porting to be done on it. Unless, it's just a cover. I haven't dug that deep into this engine to know.

Porting 15" of runner would require cutting, then rewelding. And extrude hone would probably be the better route.

[rwelsh]

Lextreme are you trying to tell me that if you put this manifold on one of your twin or single turbo cars that you think there would be no horsepower gains.
Kinda sounds like it would be great only if you developed it.
Your forged internals are very expensive and don't give a single horsepower gain. Only if you want to run high boost are they any benefit at all.
Even then they are only a gate-way to more power--just like the manifold Get it?

[rwelsh]

Like Argamemenon (hope I got that right) I don't understand why you are so down on the manifold. I think everyone should be pleased and interested in such products. Everyone has the right to buy or not buy this product what they do not have is the right to slam this product because they personally do not like the idea of the product.
Cowboy has had the testing done and published the results. This is proof of what he claims-which is that the manifold flows 27-30% more than the stock manifold. This is all he claims.
When a manifold becomes available to me I will fit it with my Supercharger kit to my truck and go back to the same dyno that I used to dyno the kit originally. Then we will know what gains we get. Will that be proof enough to satisfy you.?????? Or will you still be pissed that you didn't have the idea first

[Lextreme]

Originally Posted by rwelsh

Like Argamemenon (hope I got that right) I don't understand why you are so down on the manifold. I think everyone should be pleased and interested in such products. Everyone has the right to buy or not buy this product what they do not have is the right to slam this product because they personally do not like the idea of the product.
Cowboy has had the testing done and published the results. This is proof of what he claims-which is that the manifold flows 27-30% more than the stock manifold. This is all he claims.
When a manifold becomes available to me I will fit it with my Supercharger kit to my truck and go back to the same dyno that I used to dyno the kit originally. Then we will know what gains we get. Will that be proof enough to satisfy you.?????? Or will you still be pissed that you didn't have the idea first

I think its a great product. Its beautiful and its an awesome show piece. I really like it but I dont envy it. You have some great points. However, I think Cowboy should slow down little on his products. One of his posts in our forum stating PROVEN and FLOWS. In general the interpretation of PROVEN means it is running in a live engine. Giving us the flow numbers is not proven. It just show that this manifold flows that is all. To me and most people proven is how this manifold work and fit into a running engine and document the grain if any. There are most complex issues then just making a manifold. For example:

How would this manifold fit under the hood?
How around the throttle body fit and what type of TB. If after market TB then which one and what type of bolt pattern it is or will be.
Would the TB interfer with the radiator or fan.
Would there be any cable connection issue?
What about wiring modification
How about this manifold affect idle
What type of computer it would need to full utilized this manifold
How would the injectors fitted
What about fuel rail mounts

The manifold doesnt function individually, it functions as part of the system. All those questions still need to be answer. I am not trying to bash anyone or product, but is it important to the community that this product is still being test or have not tested yet. Great products are welcome in this or any community, but untested products should be exposed. I have nothing against the mainfold, but I personally this product need some testing before selling. This product was available before the fabrication was finished let alone testing.

Cowboy and the gang. Slow down and let your products speak for itself. I think you guys are in such a hurry to push this community. Take your time and your awesome products will speak for itself. I can see your company will be the HKS in the V8 community, but please slow down and let your quality market itself.

[rwelsh]

All of your questions about T/B fit-underhood clearance etc. have ,or will be addressed of course. Please give us some credit for intelligence. The injector placement and fuel rail are all stock because the first 4 " of the stock manifold runners are used for the basis of the plenum manifold.
My suggestion to you is to use the same patience that you are telling TTC to have. This has been shown on the forum but I don't belive anyone has been told that there are hundreds already made and waiting on the shelf for sale. This is a work in progress and if you read the info you will find that the one shown is for a 2UZFE /Supra application which,obviously will be different from a Tundra application.
One big advantage of this manifold is that it will allow a large air to Liquid intercooler to fit on top of the manifold with ample hood clearance when applied to the Tundra

[cowboy bebop]

Well said Rob..

I will add that when I say "proven and flowed", I mean it. The manifold is proven in the fact that the cylinder flow is kept very close, and that it flows much more than a stock manifold will. In that sense, it is indeed proven. Any claim on HP gain would be foolish since every motor is different. No credible aftermarket intake manufacturer would ever make a guaranteed HP claim, but instead show the facts. In this case, the facts have been presented, and it is up to the public whether they will take it, or leave it.

I don't know about the next "HKS", but we are damn sure putting out parts that work. There has been a huge gap in innovation for the last 5 years, when it comes to the V8 community. Only a few companies have upped the bar in that time, while others are content to be the big fish in a small pond. The times are changing, and more performance products will be coming down the pipeline very soon for the 'uz-fe series of V8's. It's time to quit dreaming and join the rest of the performance world by way of innovation, and determination. It's time to wake up and get to work, because "sleepy time" is over...

There are 1000HP 2jz's prowling the streets, ask me how I know... What I don't understand is why there are not 1000HP 2uz-fe's roaming the streets. The answer is that when the V8 was legislated out of racing years back, the innovation curve stopped dead. Now here we are years later, just catching up. There is still much to do, however, and we will be there every step of the way.

Eric

[Lextreme]

Originally Posted by rwelsh

When a manifold becomes available to me I will fit it with my Supercharger kit to my truck and go back to the same dyno that I used to dyno the kit originally. Then we will know what gains we get. Will that be proof enough to satisfy you.

I will be very interested in the result. Since you are only running 5 psi and there still lots of room left for the stock manifold to take to flow. I would like to see the improvement. You havent max out the stock intake yet, I just wonder how much improvement the dyno will show for the 27% increase in airflow.

Originally Posted by rwelsh

All of your questions about T/B fit-underhood clearance etc. have ,or will be addressed of course. Please give us some credit for intelligence. The injector placement and fuel rail are all stock because the first 4 " of the stock manifold runners are used for the basis of the plenum manifold.

Great you just answer two of my questions. So other issues will address later? Meanwhile you dont know it will work or not?

Originally Posted by rwelsh

My suggestion to you is to use the same patience that you are telling TTC to have. This has been shown on the forum but I don't belive anyone has been told that there are hundreds already made and waiting on the shelf for sale. This is a work in progress and if you read the info you will find that the one shown is for a 2UZFE /Supra application which,obviously will be different from a Tundra application.

Commericial business don't sell parts while the product is in progress. Commericial sell parts because they have been tested and documented.

Originally Posted by cowboy bebop

Well said Rob..

I will add that when I say "proven and flowed", I mean it. The manifold is proven in the fact that the cylinder flow is kept very close, and that it flows much more than a stock manifold will. In that sense, it is indeed proven.
Eric

I am not sure what kind of logic you are using. Flowed doesn't mean its proven. I got few plastic pvc pipes from Home Depot and they flow 80% better. Is that mean my plastic plumbing pipes are proven? By your definition, Yes, it did flow... therefore its proven... The logic doesn't ring a bell. Proven doesn't mean how much it flows. Proven is how the manifold work with other parts. The manifold function as a part of system. The manifold doesn't function as individual part. I have nothing against, but rather the community demand great evidence. Since you pride yourself with quality products, we would demand more testings.

[cowboy bebop]

Originally Posted by Lextreme

Flowed doesn't mean its proven. I got few plastic pvc pipes from Home Depot and they flow 80% better. Is that mean my plastic plumbing pipes are proven?

(1) That, sir, is one of the most assinine statements I've ever seen. You completely showed your *** on that one...

(2) The day you can make your PVC monstrosity into a manifold, I'll pay for the flow bench testing myself.

(3)For someone with a glass house, you sure do toss a lot of stones. Aren't you seling a tinker toy "built" 4.7L, that has never turned over, never been installed in a car, uses and untested crank, and no real ECU to control it?? And isn't built by the same guy who told you that you can use ductile iron sleeve raised 15 thousands above deck, as O rings???? If you want to talk about tested and proven, then I suggest sir, that you practice what you preach.

(4) Rob Welsh is one of the most knowledgable, and generous motorsports professional I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with. He is the picture of integrity. Do you REALLY think that he would non-quality item?

(5) Again, if you want to do independent testing, I would be more than happy to ship this manifold to you as a sample piece. Let me know the address and I will arrange the invoice immediately. All the rest is talk; cheap, whiney, sour grapes, talk. You send the shipping address, and my AP department will have the invoice to you before sundown, and the manifold to you as soon as payment is rendered.

Eric

[ARGAMEMENON]

Your PVC may flow, but what does that have to do with a manifold? I could flow a Silo from my friends farm, and i bet it would flow more than anything....but what does that have to do with manifolds. This manifold is PROVEN TO FLOW.

It bolts up to the motor just like the stock manifold does. It uses bolts, studs, and nuts as fasteners, just like stock.
This manifold was made for a Supra, so it is 3" shorter than the stock one to clear the hood. In any other swap, it will give you an extra 3" inches that you dodn't have with the stock manifold.
There is a good foot between the end of the motor and the radiator, so there is plenty of room for a Q45 TB. No it will not interfere. You could probably weld a 5" length of aluminum tube to the end of the TB and still have room left over.
A Q45 throttle body is used, so amazingly enough, a Q45 throttle body bolt pattern is machined onto a flange, and put on the front. For any other TB, that pattern would be machined onto a flange.....What kind of questions are these?
You did ask......so....
If you have looked at the various pictures of the manifold or read any of the info on it (I'm sure you have but it doesn't seem like anything has sunk in), you would know that it uses the stock runners. Therefore believe it or not the stock injectors and rails bolt up to it. The bolts that hold the stock rails in place are threaded into bungs, which you can clearly see are still there.
There is no magic or trickery with the throttle cable. The barrel of the cable will be placed in the small hole intended for it at the end of the puller wheel. The cable will then rest in the slot running along the perimiter of the pulley wheel. The cable will then run through the firewall and be connected to the accelerator pedal. If you have ever seen a Q45 throttle body used in any other car, this one will be no different.
As we've said before, this very manifold has no provisions for IAC...etc, so no wiring is needed. Vacuum fittings are supplied underneath for boost pressure, brake booster and so on. If anyone chooses to run IAC, the flange will be provided on the manifold. That will also wrap up idle issues.
I think that wraps up all your questions...If you have more ask quick 'cuz I'm on a roll.
I'm sorry if this reply seemed a bit sarcastic in nature or degrading, but if you're going to act like you have no clue, I'll treat you like you have no clue.
I wish we could all get along and support one another. None of us are "ricers", with obviously rediculous ideas or notions. We all here for the same thing, to better our motors, our cars, and our trucks. Coming on here and constantly interrogating others work or ideas does nothing to help anyone.

[TMS2U]

Gentlemen, lets not decend into the dark ages.

Please keep it civil

[Lextreme]

Guys,

Please don't get personal. I noticed you guys are little upset. However, I hope we can continue to exchange ideas in a mature and professional manner. That said. The point I was trying to make is that something flow, doesn't mean it will work. My pvc pipes is an example by no mean to disrespect anyone work. The pvc example is way out there, but it proofs a point. Something flows but it doesn't work. If you only stating it flows... I think the public would need more informatin and more solid data than that it just flow....

Once again, please don't missunderstand my posts. Your manifold is awesome and lots of engineering went in along with skilled craftsmentship, but we are interested to see how it work in real life.

[cowboy bebop]

Please reference the posts by Rob Welsh above for answers to your questions. Your personal bashing will not be tolerated here.

I thank you for your concern, but it seem you have nothing to offer the conversation, and will not accept the answers that we have supplied in bulk.

Eric

[Eddie]

Like my associate TMS2U said,keep it civil guys. Continue your arguments via Private Messenging otherwise I'll have no choice but to start editing posts.