Problems After Dealership Oil Change - Any Ideas?

[Picasso]

I recently had my oil changed at a dealership before a long trip and had the following symptoms show up immediately after leaving the dealership:
- There is a noticable but slight roughness similar to what you would get with a hole in the exhaust or a leak in a vacuum line or intake. This can be felt through the gas pedal and steering wheel.
- Exhaust sound has changed. The rumble is at a lower frequency than before and the exhaust pulses are more distinct. I never noticed any pulses before except when idling.
- There is a very noticable vibration that peaks at 40mph. Vibration is felt throughout the whole vehicle, gas pedal, both front seats shake, and steering wheel to a lesser degree.
- There is another vibration that starts at 55mph and peaks at 70mph. This is most noticable through the steering wheel. The seats also shake.
- There is the sound of something vibrating off and on with the vehicle in park or drive. It sounds like it is coming from inside the lower ash near the tranny hump. It is a possibility that the S&S O2 sensor extension clip, which rests on one of the heat shields, may be the cause. Will try to eliminate that today. It's always been in that position and never made sound before. though.

The dealership had my truck for only an hour and did do the oil change. I am trying to find out what they did, either accidentally or intentionally, to cause these problems because it ran much better before I took it in. I do know that they prodded my truck to find things that might need fixing, as they started doing this even before I got out of the vehicle while talking to the service rep.

Here's what I've done since:
- Inspected all vacuum hoses. No leaks found.
- Top half of air filter box was not seated properly. Reseating reduced the exhaust roughness a little. This has happened once before.
- Did a throttle body and MAF cleaning with Seafoam. TB wasn't very dirty.
- Checked all header flange nuts. Four on the passenger side needed tightening.
- Replaced all four catalytic converter gaskets. Had a CEL (P0420 - low catalyst efficiency, drivers side) show up after the first leg of the trip which went away the day after replacing the gaskets.
- Re-did my temporary S&S y-pipe donut gasket fix which took care of that leak again.
- Inspected muffler for holes. None found.
- Center support bearing was off by about 1/8 of an inch. Could only move it in so that it is 1/16 of an inch off center. 40mph vibration was reduced after doing this.
- Inspected driveshaft for missing weights. No spots where a missing weight should be.
- Checked motor mounts and transmission mount. All were tight.
- Had tires checked. All were half an ounce off. Vibration at 40mph is mostly gone now but 70mph vibration is still going strong.

On the trip down, I got 18.4 mpg highway. After doing the above, I got 20mpg highway which I would attribute mostly to the donut gasket fix.

I am guessing that the cat gasket(s) leaked when the y-pipe was removed in the process of getting my tranny replaced a few months ago which broke the seals.

I've classified my symptoms into two categories and have spent a bit of time researching them in these contexts:
1. Engine/exhaust
2. Drive train/suspension
- I also noted that my diff points parallel to the ground and not at the center support bearing. It looks like they are at about a 2 maybe 3 degree angle to each other.
- The tranny points almost directly at the CSB.
- The marks on the CSB showing where it was mounted before the new tranny was put in, indicate that it was mounted about 3/16" forward from where it is now. If I were to try to put it back in that position it would bulge on the side facing the diff.

These symptoms are not uncommon. What is uncommon is that they all showed up immediately after my truck was at the dealership.

My questions are:
A. What could the dealership have done, intentionally or not, to cause these symptoms?
B. What do you think is going on here?

Something to chew on if you're bored or like a challenge.

Many thanks,


Paul

[Picasso]

Originally Posted by Picasso

- There is the sound of something vibrating off and on with the vehicle in park or drive. It sounds like it is coming from inside the lower ash near the tranny hump. It is a possibility that the S&S O2 sensor extension clip, which rests on one of the heat shields, may be the cause. Will try to eliminate that today. It's always been in that position and never made sound before. though.

It was the O2 sensor extension.

I've found another problem. The engine shakes with the tranny in park or neutral. This can also be felt while driving with the tranny in gear. It's not heavy but it's definitely felt. It's tied directly to the RPMs like one of the cylinders has a problem. With what, I don't know. Checked all the plugs yesterday. They all looked great.

Could the dampener have slipped? Do our trucks even have one? I'm at a loss.


Paul

[cupidstoy]

hey picasso....

since no else is tackling this, i'll throw a few thoughts your way...

first, sounds like you're doing a good job troubleshooting. i think you've checked most of the usual suspects. here's a few more ideas to try:

you say your truck is a 2000 model but don't give the mileage. did you have the timing belt replaced at 90000? if not, maybe it's stretching a bit and causing the timing to be off?

checking the spark plugs visually is a bit like looking at a circuit board to find the bad component. i would check resistance on them or try to disable them one at a time while the engine is running (is that even possible with the new style coil packs?) to eliminate them from the vibration. a plug can be bad internally or have an intermittant short and still look ok. same with coil packs.

compression check? an unbalanced cylinder (worn valves? broken spring? bad hydraulics?) would cause a mild vibration as that cylinder came and went.

i think it's normal for the drive shaft carrier bearing to be slightly off. mine is and i've heard of others having the vibration problem and making the carrier bearing mount line up visually actually made the problem worse.

your gas mileage numbers are awesome, so i wouldn't suspect any major engine malfunction. plus you're not throwing any codes, right?

did they have the tires off? the way the tires are mounted and torqued can have an effect on the balance. hubcentric wheels are particular in that area. do you have aftermarket rims? are they for sure matching the center hole in the hub on the truck? that is a likely source of minor vibration at speed.

a popped or slipped belt in a tire can cause a vibration. does the vibration move if you rotate the tires?

also, don't forget injectors can get clogged or carbon deposits form on valves and cause strange symptoms. maybe a can of injector cleaner or a full injector flush would be a possible solution?

how about the in-line fuel filter? any moisture in there?

i know your last post focused on the engine vibration. i'm thinking i would tackle that first and once it's smoothed out move on to the suspension if there are still issues.

good luck and let us know any new info...

[Picasso]

Cupidstoy,
Thank you very much taking the time to post your recommendations. They make a lot of sense and I'll give each a try. I'll take anything at this point.

I've provided answers to your questions in red. If you or anyone else can think of any other recommendations, don't hesitate to post a reply.

Originally Posted by cupidstoy

you say your truck is a 2000 model but don't give the mileage. did you have the timing belt replaced at 90000? if not, maybe it's stretching a bit and causing the timing to be off? 75k miles. Original timing belt.

checking the spark plugs visually is a bit like looking at a circuit board to find the bad component. i would check resistance on them or try to disable them one at a time while the engine is running (is that even possible with the new style coil packs?) to eliminate them from the vibration. I would really like to do this but the Haynes manual sort of implies that this may not be a good idea. It says to crank the engine with a plug disconnected but never says to run the engine for this kind of test. I had no problems doing this a few times on my 4 cylinder Acura though.

a plug can be bad internally or have an intermittant short and still look ok. same with coil packs. I'll test the resistence for each plug. Anyone recall how many ohms a plug should have? How would I test the coil packs? I knew I should have brought my DVM with me on this trip. Damn!

compression check? an unbalanced cylinder (worn valves? broken spring? bad hydraulics?) would cause a mild vibration as that cylinder came and went. How would I check these?

i think it's normal for the drive shaft carrier bearing to be slightly off. mine is and i've heard of others having the vibration problem and making the carrier bearing mount line up visually actually made the problem worse.

your gas mileage numbers are awesome, so i wouldn't suspect any major engine malfunction. plus you're not throwing any codes, right? No codes.

did they have the tires off? the way the tires are mounted and torqued can have an effect on the balance. hubcentric wheels are particular in that area. do you have aftermarket rims? are they for sure matching the center hole in the hub on the truck? that is a likely source of minor vibration at speed.

a popped or slipped belt in a tire can cause a vibration. does the vibration move if you rotate the tires? Original Toyota aluminum rims. Rotated and torqued them myself a few weeks ago. No change.

also, don't forget injectors can get clogged or carbon deposits form on valves and cause strange symptoms. maybe a can of injector cleaner or a full injector flush would be a possible solution? Was thinking the same thing, although I put about half a can of Seafoam in my tank when I cleaned my throttle body a few weeks ago. Would a product specifically advertised for injector cleaning be any better? I quess it wouldn't really hurt to try.

how about the in-line fuel filter? any moisture in there? Was thinking that too. I may just replace it to eliminate it as a possibility.

i know your last post focused on the engine vibration. i'm thinking i would tackle that first and once it's smoothed out move on to the suspension if there are still issues.

good luck and let us know any new info...

Thanks again,


Paul

[cupidstoy]

on the plugs, just look for a value that is different then the others.

to do a compression check, you need a compression tester - a tool with a gauge that threads into the spark plug hole. any decent shop would have one and could probably be do it pretty low cost - especially if you thread out the plugs for them while it's in the driveway. maybe autozone or some type of autoparts store in the area has a loaner program? same deal as the plugs - absolute values not as important as looking for an unbalanced cylinder that has a value more then 10% different then the others on average.

sea foam is a good cleaner. maybe it knocked something loose and that is the source of your trouble? on my other car, i was able to loosen the fuel line and get some sea foam full strength into the injectors with a funnel. otherwise, you can buy the pressurized kit to do this or pay someone to either remove the injectors and clean them or flush them on the engine with a special machine. if you do open the fuel system, beware it is under pressue and you should pull the fuel pump fuse first and then slowly release the pressue. wear goggles and be careful of fire/sparks.

a couple of other thoughts: check for oil in radiator fluid or radiator smells at tailpipe to help eliminate head gasket trouble. and check for any loose wires.

good luck! i'm sure some of the really experienced guys will have better thoughts then i on this stuff, but at least you'll have ruled out the simple stuff and who knows? maybe we'll get lucky and hit on the right solution....

[Picasso]

Originally Posted by cupidstoy

sea foam is a good cleaner. maybe it knocked something loose and that is the source of your trouble?

I used the Seafoam after my truck started having problems so that couldn't have caused it.

Originally Posted by cupidstoy

a couple of other thoughts: check for oil in radiator fluid or radiator smells at tailpipe to help eliminate head gasket trouble. and check for any loose wires.

No radiator smell at the tailpipe. I haven't checked the fluid yet though.


I took off the serpentine belt and ran the engine to see if there was any change. There wasn't.

Something else that may be an indicator is the very slight tapping noise that can only be heard from outside the truck with the engine running. It is heard by listening at the left wheel well or from underneath the left side of the truck (where the header collector and cat are). It increases in frequency with the engine RPMs but does not increase in volume. It cannot be heard from the top with the hood open and the engine running. This has existed since the first day that I installed my headers. My truck ran fine with this sound until after the recent oil change. I've always attributed it to an accoustic property of the headers and not a mechanical condition. I'm grasping at straws with this one but I thought I'd throw it out anyway.

The torque and general performance of the engine are very good. It just runs very harshly and it feels like this is getting worse. It feels fine while idling but as soon as I accelerate, the harshness shows up. This gets worse with the AC running, even at idle. It is very similar to having a large hole in your muffler or a serious leak in the intake. When my 77 Nova got a large hole in its muffler, it was never this bad. When I forgot to reconnect the intake tube on my 90 Acura Integra after replacing the air filter, it also wasn't this bad.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,


Paul

[Picasso]

I think I know what the cause of the vibrations is. In fact I think I know exactly what it is and I'll find out for sure Saturday morning.

Anyone else that can correctly deduce what the problem is, before I confirm it, wins a trip to Hawaii or can at least bask in glory by demonstrating their Tundra problem solving skills.

Good luck.


Paul

[Mike Donofrio]

So what was the problem, inquiring minds want to know!

[5 Speed]

I have no clue as to what your problem is but I do have a question about your (P0420 - low catalyst efficiency, drivers side). I too have thrown this code and what made you think it was the cat seals? This code is thrown by the oxyogen sensor down stream from the cat. I have just reset the code because the last time I had a smog test done it was fantastic. Could it be the oxyogen sensor starting to go bad?

[mustang67408]

My first thought was the FLEXPLATE, but you pretty much ruled that out, the only real way to tell is to remove it and see if it is cracked, or try to look up there and see if you see any rust lines or cracks themselves.

Flywheels are for stick shift vehicles.

Are all the blades on the cooling fan?
Any piece of blade missing on one fin of the fan? Vibrates really bad when accelerating.

Is the oil cap on?

Did the vac lines get crossed for the EVAP VSV and Canister?
They could have leaned on them when adding oil and put them back wrong?

Any chance of getting a pic or 2 of the engine
or video of the VIBRATION/Miss.(engine running)
Internet diag is really hard without the vehicle.

[mustang67408]

I saw your pictures,
You were right, all vac lines are installed properly.
HMMMMMM
Could the cat converter honeycomb part be loose inside the pipe?
Avalons do this quite often. Sounds like a piston knock sometimes.

[gquenstedt]

Does anyone know of a way to check if the injectors are getting power/working properly? I don't know how to do this but it caused problems for one of my friend's chevy.

[mustang67408]

Originally Posted by gquenstedt

Does anyone know of a way to check if the injectors are getting power/working properly? I don't know how to do this but it caused problems for one of my friend's chevy.

You can use an oscilliscope (see pic)
You can measure resistance (see pdf)
I personally use a "NOID" light. It is a light that plugs into the injector plug and flashes when the injector is supposed to work.

Remember when you unplug and injector on a Tundra V-8, it will cause the engine to miss. IF YOU PLUG IT BACK IN, IT WILL NOT START WORKING AGAIN UNTIL YOU RESET THE ECU.

Same thing goes for the coil packs, IF YOU UNPLUG THEM TO CHECK AND SEE IF THAT CYLINDER IS WORKING, IT WILL NOT START TO WORK AGAIN UNTIL YOU RESET THE ECU.

[Picasso]

I just noticed that you saw my pictures and posted a reply before I submitted my previous post. You're quick.

Originally Posted by mustang67408

I saw your pictures,
You were right, all vac lines are installed properly.
HMMMMMM
Could the cat converter honeycomb part be loose inside the pipe?
Avalons do this quite often. Sounds like a piston knock sometimes.

I removed both cats completely in order to replace the gaskets a couple weeks after the problems started. Looked at them, shook them, tossed them in the air. No problems found.

There is no unusual engine sound but my exhaust sounds different. It's like one of the cylinders has a stronger exhaust pulse than the others and is similar to what I have heard from vehicles that have exhaust systems designed to make more sound. It's not that this is so bad but that it is suddenly different. This is very consistent. The hissing from the leaky S&S donut gasket is also louder than it has ever been under acceleration.

My next steps will be to have a better connector welded on in place of the donut gasket and then to have the engine plugged into a Scan Tool.

Thanks again for your help. I'll let you know how things go.


Paul



PS: I'm still finding tiny metal particles floating in the fluid at the end of the tranny dipstick. My truck needs to be nuked.

[Picasso]

In my continuing attempts to resolve the engine related issues first, I'm going to have my truck hooked up to an analyzer. It was recommended by a very knowledgeable TS member to have my truck hooked up to a scan tool to see what it detects.

In my research on scan tools, I'm not entirely sure what level of detail they can detect that would be relevant to my engine problems. It appears that they only display problems that are only generated by the truck's ECU which consist of 1) no problems are detected, 2) there are some pending trouble codes that haven't yet turned on the CEL, and 3) here are the codes that have caused the CEL to turn on.

Since I would really like to know if anything on the engine is operating outside of its normal range for either resistance, voltage, current, etc., does a Pending Code displayed by a scan tool indicate this? I'm thinking back to the days before OBD when they would hook your car up to a very large machine that would display voltages, resistance, and a couple other things to check them.

The reason I am asking is that I can buy a scan tool for about the same price as it would cost me to have a shop hook one up to my truck. I saw one of