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Forced Induction SystemsDetailed discussions regarding cold-air intake systens, superchargers, turbo chargers, and other induction systems for your vehicle.
This is a discussion thread titled "TRD Supercharger", within the Forced Induction Systems forum, part of the Technical & Vehicle Assistance Forums category.
If we have been going round and round about what encompasses the bottom end of an engine and what doesn't then no wonder we are not on the same page. I have always though (perhaps incorrectly) that the bottom end of an engine was everything bellow the heads to include pistons, rings, con-rods, crank, bearings, and caps. Well now we both agree that from the factory most forced induction engines run lower static compression ratios.
As I said before, I am not a big fan of TRD superchargers based on my observations of previous applications and my customer's unsatisfactory results with them. I wish everyone that will put one of these on their truck the best of luck. I am settled on buying a Tundra when the time comes, but will probably not do any forced induction on it, unless it comes from the factory with some sort of FI.
That clears a lot up, but I still stand by lower C/R + higher boost is near equal to higher compression and lower boost.
And while I would rather have forged slugs, if detonation is kept in check, hyper pistons are not a liability.
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'07 Cmax, SR5, 4X4, 5.7......'01 Ford F-250 Crew Cab, V10.....'95 T-100, 2.7L......and about 10 other vehicles that I don't want to bore you with.
[quote=ag4ever;792409][quote=Time4change;790856]Pistons and rings are "top end" pieces.
Quote:
I was always taught the crank, rods, pistons and rings are part of the bottom end.
The intake, heads, carb (or FI), and distributor were top end components.
Long block has top end on it, short block is only bottom end components.
Negative:
Long block includes heads but NOT intake, distributor, carb etc...
Short block does not include heads or any of the above.
A head rebuld is, but not exclusively, a valve job.....things like guides, seals, maybe seats etc. .
Bottom end is crank, rods, bearings etc...
Top end is pistons and rings.
__________________
'07 Cmax, SR5, 4X4, 5.7......'01 Ford F-250 Crew Cab, V10.....'95 T-100, 2.7L......and about 10 other vehicles that I don't want to bore you with.
That clears a lot up, but I still stand by lower C/R + higher boost is near equal to higher compression and lower boost.
And while I would rather have forged slugs, if detonation is kept in check, hyper pistons are not a liability.
My car runs hypereutectic pistons, and in various forms the Subaru 2.5L block with those pistons have been made to make well over 400whp. It's all about detonation/cylinder temps being kept in check like you say. Even though a forged piston might resist shattering under detonation, it still won't prevent the piston top and valves from cooking (like molten metal). That is why I would also worry about excessive heat build up under heavy load. Detonation and too much heat go hand in hand where you find one, you will find the other.
If I were to run a supercharger on one of these engines I would like to see a gauge cluster that included temperature of exhaust gas and if possible temp in the intake manifold. That way for someone wanting to tow with the set up they could keep a close eye on things to know when to back off. Computers are nice for monitoring these things too but it's nice to not have to get a warning light that might be too late.
Of course a factory build low comp motor running a supercharger would be better, for a lot of guys looking to really make a hot rod that would give them more room for impressive power gains. $5K just seems like a lot of money for a power mod that you can't really go any further with by itself.
My car runs hypereutectic pistons, and in various forms the Subaru 2.5L block with those pistons have been made to make well over 400whp. It's all about detonation/cylinder temps being kept in check like you say. Even though a forged piston might resist shattering under detonation, it still won't prevent the piston top and valves from cooking (like molten metal). That is why I would also worry about excessive heat build up under heavy load. Detonation and too much heat go hand in hand where you find one, you will find the other.
If I were to run a supercharger on one of these engines I would like to see a gauge cluster that included temperature of exhaust gas and if possible temp in the intake manifold. That way for someone wanting to tow with the set up they could keep a close eye on things to know when to back off. Computers are nice for monitoring these things too but it's nice to not have to get a warning light that might be too late.
Of course a factory build low comp motor running a supercharger would be better, for a lot of guys looking to really make a hot rod that would give them more room for impressive power gains. $5K just seems like a lot of money for a power mod that you can't really go any further with by itself.
I like the gauge idea and I'm guessing the kit will have an ECM to pull timing when things get too close to that melting point.....My Ligthning did, and I'm sure your scooby does.
But we still disagree on peak performance............the limiting factor will be the fuel.
A motor will have a limit on how much compression it'll handle on pump gas.
It doesn't matter how that compression is made......whether it be static or forced.
I honestly do not think there would be any difference in your scooby if it had a higher initial C/R and lower boost.
The Toy 5.7 has something left in it IMHO........the thing runs flawlessly (so far) on cheap 87 fuel.
When I supercharged my boat, I had a chart from B&M blowers showing base C/R and adjusted C/R with boost......If memory serves, I settled on an adjusted C/R at 5 psi of almost 11:1.......but we're talking a 2 valve old tech chamber.
Just the fact that the Toy has at least 2 grades of fuel to go through, I'm guessing 5 psi will be a safe limit.
One thing I know we agree on is that under boost, detonation is UNFORGIVING......things melt when you get to that point on a blown motor.
All I've tried to say from the begining is keep the 5.7 out of that danger zone and you should be all right.
I know you've tried to convince us that the higher C/R gives us little room to play with..........I do not agree on the simple fact that we still have 4 anti knock index numbers to play with (87-91).
So yes, a lower C/R would allow more boost but the end result will be close if not the same.
Totally fictitious chart:
10:1 C/R + 5 PSI = 12:1 C/R
8:1 C/R + 10PSI= 12:1 C/R
__________________
'07 Cmax, SR5, 4X4, 5.7......'01 Ford F-250 Crew Cab, V10.....'95 T-100, 2.7L......and about 10 other vehicles that I don't want to bore you with.
Last edited by Time4change; 10-12-2007 at 05:35 PM.
I like the gauge idea and I'm guessing the kit will have an ECM to pull timing when things get too close to that melting point.....My Ligthning did, and I'm sure your scooby does.
But we still disagree on peak performance............the limiting factor will be the fuel.
A motor will have a limit on how much compression it'll handle on pump gas.
It doesn't matter how that compression is made......whether it be static or forced.
I honestly do not think there would be any difference in your scooby if it had a higher initial C/R and lower boost.
The Toy 5.7 has something left in it IMHO........the thing runs flawlessly (so far) on cheap 87 fuel.
When I supercharged my boat, I had a chart from B&M blowers showing base C/R and adjusted C/R with boost......If memory serves, I settled on an adjusted C/R at 5 psi of almost 11:1.......but we're talking a 2 valve old tech chamber.
Just the fact that the Toy has at least 2 grades of fuel to go through, I'm guessing 5 psi will be a safe limit.
One thing I know we agree on is that under boost, detonation is UNFORGIVING......things melt when you get to that point on a blown motor.
All I've tried to say from the begining is keep the 5.7 out of that danger zone and you should be all right.
I know you've tried to convince us that the higher C/R gives us little room to play with..........I do not agree on the simple fact that we still have 4 anti knock index numbers to play with (87-91).
So yes, a lower C/R would allow more boost but the end result will be close if not the same.
Totally fictitious chart:
10:1 C/R + 5 PSI = 12:1 C/R
8:1 C/R + 10PSI= 12:1 C/R
Given fuel that can handle the compression without detonating before the piston hits top dead center will allow all sorts of boost regardless of static compression. Then the engine is just limited by how much the internals can stand for pressure, and then we would basically be talking about a diesel anyway.
100 octane race gas would give a great safety margin, too bad it's probably not good for emissions equipment; well that and you can't hardly find the stuff.
One factor we haven't discussed yet that allows for more boost regardless of static compression ratio is how cool the charge air can be kept. This of course adds to the safety margin for detonation by keeping heat at bay, and it means more solid consistent power. This is an area where factory integrated forced induction systems really shine, especially on turbochargers. Compressing that air heats it up, if you can keep it compressed and get the heat out before it hits the combustion chamber you have a much safer, consistent, more durable set up for steady high power output.
Intercooling is the ticket............I thought I read the TRD system used an intercooler???
1 month till SEMA!!!
The Lightning used a totally independent cooling system for the I/C.....real simple, efficient system.
__________________
'07 Cmax, SR5, 4X4, 5.7......'01 Ford F-250 Crew Cab, V10.....'95 T-100, 2.7L......and about 10 other vehicles that I don't want to bore you with.
If you have the link to the charger why haven't you guys ordered it yet? Half of you are complaining about the charger not being available well, now you have the information thanks to Stanton49, what are you waiting for?
I all fairness to everybody else, this could be a glorified waiting list too. Obviously someone who wanted one should verify with these folks if they actually have them in stock and ready to ship first.
$4800 isn't bad for the ONLY supercharger made for the 5.7 currently, but I bet it doesn't come with an intercooler. If you don't intercool your pressurized air then you are robbing yourself of horsepower, torque and engine life; not to mention your hard earned cash! for a $3500 kit that would be fine, but not a $5200 one. Hope there are aftermarket intercoolers that will fit this system.
Has TRD included intercoolers with there kits for the Taco?
I'm gonna wait to see if a Turbo comes out soon, or another manu's super.
Well I called them and was told it would probably be another six months untill they have them instock, so there's the skinny from toyotaterritory.com.
I think I will call STS and see if they have any turbo plans.
Post on the turbo when you get the word. I saw a rear exhaust mounted turbo on the show "Trucks" which peaked my interest a few years back (can't remember the brand) which would allow for a quick swapout if a warranty issue came up.
Post on the turbo when you get the word. I saw a rear exhaust mounted turbo on the show "Trucks" which peaked my interest a few years back (can't remember the brand) which would allow for a quick swapout if a warranty issue came up.
STS makes the "rear mounted turbo" you are talking about.
Re: TRD Supercharger
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