Question Any electricians?

[Leland]

Are there any electricians here?

As always, i have projects going down at the house. One of my current projects involves finishing the basement, to which I'd like to add some receptacles.

Problem is that my distribution box is full.....and done in a hair-brained way. In some cases, there are only a couple of drops off a breaker. However, all of the receptacles in the basement (which includes a garage w/ workshop....i.e. compressor, halogen work lights, etc.) are driven out of one 20A breaker. In total, it's about a dozen receptacles with about 30 access points (plugs).

I'm thinking this is already a bit much for one circuit. Although most aren't used, I was wondering if anyone could give me advice as to how many I should have for a single breaker.

Thanks!

[DrBundy]

Originally Posted by Leland

Are there any electricians here?

As always, i have projects going down at the house. One of my current projects involves finishing the basement, to which I'd like to add some receptacles.

Problem is that my distribution box is full.....and done in a hair-brained way. In some cases, there are only a couple of drops off a breaker. However, all of the receptacles in the basement (which includes a garage w/ workshop....i.e. compressor, halogen work lights, etc.) are driven out of one 20A breaker. In total, it's about a dozen receptacles with about 30 access points (plugs).

I'm thinking this is already a bit much for one circuit. Although most aren't used, I was wondering if anyone could give me advice as to how many I should have for a single breaker.

Thanks!

Codes vary from area to area, but a good guideline is the NEC (National Electric Code) NFPA . I don't have my copy any more, but if memory serves, the basic rule of thumb is no more than 12 receptacles per circuit. 12 is too many, IMO, but I've seen a lot worse, including in my own home. The link above brings you to the NEC online, but you have to subscribe to it. Home Depot & Lowes have pocket reference books. I don't have any of those either, so in essence I didn't answer your question with anything more than my fuzzy memory. Hopefully someone with some real knowledge will pipe up and answer the question for you.

Cheers!

~A

[Frankenstein]

Not an electrician. But I'll take a crack at it anyway. I have done lots of projects.

1: 20 Amp circuit breaker or fuse demands 12-2 wiring. It doesn't really matter how many outlets you have on the circuit, but if you are drawing near 20 amps with the maximum number of things running at the same time, you'll blow the circuit beaker. The thing NOT to do is put in a bigger breaker or fuse. A 15 Amp breaker can have 14 gauge wiring and would frequently be used for light circuits.

A basement workshop should have 3 circuits anyway, each on it's own 20 amp service, and powering 2-3 outlets each.

A bedroom or several bedrooms can all run on one circuit, though.

Kitchens frequently need multiple circuits, and using 12-3 wiring to each plug allows you to have two circuits powering one plug -- just remember to cut the jumper if you do this. You can do this in a workshop as well.

But your problem is that you don't have enough slots in your breaker box. What you need is either a new electrical service (the preferred option but expensive), a sub-panel for your workshop on a 60 amp breaker from your main breaker box, which you can run a few dedicated circuits out of, (second best) or to rationalize what comes from where. Lights in adjoining rooms, for example, might be on different circuits, and can be combined. Or maybe you had an old window air conditioner on it's own dedicated circuit but now have central air, that circuit can be disconnected and you can use it for your workshop. If you've replaced either an electric stove, dryer, or electric baseboard heating with something centralized these non-used circuits can be reclaimed.

But to answer your specific question (which I just re-read) you can have as many outlets on one circuit as you want. But your total draw is limited by your wiring and protected by you circuit breaker, so if compressor, lights, table saw etc. all are running together, you'll overload the circuit.

Hope this helps.

[d-lo]

I agree that it does not really matter how many receptacles there are as long as the expected draw is within the 20A capacity of the circuit.
The sub-panel idea is fine if you want to organize your circuits or expect to have more than a 20A draw in the basement.
We don't have basements around here (too much rock), but I'll speculate and say that you want GFI protection for all your basement outlets.

[Westie]

Lots of bad advice already here.
Consult the inspector in your area, a qualified electrician or the code book for the correct answers.

I agree that it does not really matter how many receptacles there are as long as the expected draw is within the 20A capacity of the circuit.

Well if you want to meet electrical code it does. Code (at least here) says a maximum of 12 outlets on a single breaker.

A bedroom or several bedrooms can all run on one circuit, though.

This is correct as long as no more than 12 outlets are on that circuit, however an outlet in a bedroom must be protected by an Arc fault breaker.

Kitchens frequently need multiple circuits, and using 12-3 wiring to each plug allows you to have two circuits powering one plug -- just remember to cut the jumper if you do this. You can do this in a workshop as well.

This is required by code in most areas. Some areas say that GFIs are required in kitchens. If you do have two circuits in the same box the breakers must be physicaly tied together in the panel so that if one trips they both do.

With some electrical panels you can get "skinny" breakers. Two will fit into the same physical space as a normal breaker.

[d-lo]

Originally Posted by Westie

Lots of bad advice already here.
Consult the inspector in your area, a qualified electrician or the code book for the correct answers.

Well if you want to meet electrical code it does. Code (at least here) says a maximum of 12 outlets on a single breaker.

The OP said nothing about code compliance (he's probably already out from the sound of it) and any electrician will tell you that sound, safe wiring and code compliance are not always the same. He also said that there are only about a dozen receptacles on the circuit as it is and that some of them are unused. It is a fact that the current draw on the circuit is the root safety issue, not the number of receptacles (two receptacles can be too many if you have a large enough draw).

Originally Posted by Westie

This is required by code in most areas. Some areas say that GFIs are required in kitchens. If you do have two circuits in the same box the breakers must be physicaly tied together in the panel so that if one trips they both do.

Many codes require GFI protection wherever there is the possibility of moisture or a floor with a path to ground (i.e., a garage or basement with a concrete floor). You neglected to mention the fact that a 3-wire circuit will not work with GFI protection. I would (and did) personally recommend GFI protection (which automatically negates the possibility of using 3-wire) for any area that is likely to get wet or has a concrete floor, regardless of the local code.

[Frankenstein]

Originally Posted by d-lo

You neglected to mention the fact that a 3-wire circuit will not work with GFI protection.

cool. I didn't know that.

About the maximum number of outlets allowed per circuit -- I didn't know that either. But I don't think it is inherently unsafe to have more than that number as long as your circuit breaker adequately protects the wiring (as stated in my my first reply posting). As long as not more than 20A total draw and appropriate wiring, you could have 500 outlets on one circuit and still be safe.

[d-lo]

Westie,
It is also a fact that the 2005 NEC I does not limit the number of receptacles on a general-purpose, branch circuit in a dwelling unit, so unless you are familiar with local code in the OP's jurisdiction and are speaking from that knowledge, it is you giving bad advice.

[tempetom]

Westie wrote:

With some electrical panels you can get "skinny" breakers. Two will fit into the same physical space as a normal breaker.

This is the route I took recently. I try to limit it to lighting or other low draw stuff. I don't really know if all types of breakers come in the small size though.

[Leland]

Thanks for this info guys. I knew the house was out of code. On a side note, if I ever see my home inspector on the street, you'll read about me getting off on "justifiable homicide."

I would like to bring the house up to code. Fact is that even doing the work myself (I work in the electrical engineering field & feel comfortable doing so) it would cost me a fortune in time & material to do so.

So, the best I can hope for is safe. The number of receptacles isn't a big deal because 90% of the capacity isn't used. I think I will actually replace the breaker with a 15A so that there isn't a safety issue. I will run a special 20A circuit for the purpose of safety since replacing a couple of breakers and one cable run is easier than rewiring the whole area.

FWIW, by an internet search and trip to the library today the only variation in GA from the NEC is the necessity of GFCI in wet apps for non-residential applications.

Thanks again for all the responses!!!!!

[Big_Al1]

In actuality the breaker will blow at 80% load none will let you get to the full amp capacity.To be within code 12 would be max but my old boss always told me you could put 100 receptacles just so long as you are not planning on plugging into all of them at once.Also you always want a gfi where water is near place it at the feed or first receptacle so if anything happens it will kill the circuit.

[rambrush]

A a call to your electric provider maybe a good idea, ask about the amp capacity of your incoming service. If they say you only have a 100 amp service then it can be costly to upgrade. If they advise 200 amps then I would say take the easy route go grab a 200 amp QO load center with 40 breakers and get it in place. Be very cautious of shared Neutrals they can and will bite you.
I imagine you only have single phase service coming in. But you need to be cautious on distributing the load across both buss bars.
Yes Challenger and square d make breakers that fit normal slots but have 2 switches. Just gets risky using them.

[Frankenstein]

Originally Posted by rambrush

Be very cautious of shared Neutrals they can and will bite you.

Hey Rambush. . . what exactly happens with shared neutrals? I know that there can be a problem and I asked an electrician that I know when I put in my sub panel a few years ago but I only understood it enough to put it in properly and then promptly forgot

[rambrush]

well say you have that circuit shut down and you go and remove the receptical to replace it. You show no power on the black load side or anything on the neutral. But say someone goes to use a toaster that shares that neutral. Guess what now that neutral is live and trying to send current back it can zap you at that point.
I had a case a few weeks back where the person thought they had a dead critter in the ceiling because of the odor. No critter found but we traced the smell to a receptical. It was so hot 179 degrees according to my tester and up the wall. Turns out it had a shared neutral AND aluminum wire to that receptical. The receptical was not rated for Aluminum wire so it had loosened up and created a major fire problem.

[Frankenstein]

Originally Posted by rambrush

well say you have that circuit shut down and you go and remove the receptical to replace it. You show no power on the black load side or anything on the neutral. But say someone goes to use a toaster that shares that neutral. Guess what now that neutral is live and trying to send current back it can zap you at that point.
I had a case a few weeks back where the person thought they had a dead critter in the ceiling because of the odor. No critter found but we traced the smell to a receptical. It was so hot 179 degrees according to my tester and up the wall. Turns out it had a shared neutral AND aluminum wire to that receptical. The receptical was not rated for Aluminum wire so it had loosened up and created a major fire problem.

OH. OK off topic alert. We're on off topic anywho so here goes. Would it show if you checked between neutral and ground? And anyway, aren't all neutrals shared only in the main breaker box?