Gross Domestic Product (GDP)

[Hickleberry]

Like Sano said, you really have to look at the bigger picture, most of the western nations have followed a similar model. The economy has tanked worldwide, and the governments have funneled money into training people, extending unemployment benefits and other forms of financing for their industries.

The the HVAC and trucking schools have had lots of people using government training dollars, its the same as the Tampa example, when the economy sparks up there won't be a need for so many HVAC people.

[H2O_MAN]

Originally Posted by Sanosuke

H2O_MAN,

The US is already killing itself with its GDP and debt interest as a % of GDP. SO forget the US, and focus on what is happening overseas as that is WHERE THE MONEY is going man, so follow that money over there and the USA is going to screw itself out of being the trade currency anyways!

I say forget the USA, and watch CHINA swallow the USA in a couple of years by passing it in GDP and not debt levels.

Sanosuke!

I know this, you know this, but PrezBO and his administration are either
clueless about this or they want to bankrupt the country as fast as possible.

America is screwed either way.

[longwoodklon]

Preach it leland, I agree 100%. I got 7 years left on my 15 year loan. Man, you make a shitload of money. I got 3 kids, and papa needs a new pair of shoes, help a brother out.

Also agree 100% with H2O man, let's try this definition of Fascism from Wiki:
---------------------------
Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state.[7] Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[8] Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.[9]

In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism of unrestrained capitalism and the severe control of state communism.[10][11] This was to be achieved by establishing significant government control over business and labour (Mussolini called his nation's system "the corporate state").[12][13] No common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any concise definition.
------------------------
Let's see:
Disagree with Obama, you are confused or a racist. Gov't is here to SAVE us.
Obama admin. now telling private business how to run, how much to pay, etc..

Looks like Fascism to me. If it looks like Fascism, smells like Fascism, sounds like Fascism, it must be Fascism. It's what I've used to describe this admin. since the beginning, not necessarily socialism, but fascism.


The debt concerns me. I don't think it's an obstacle that can not be overcome, and Americans are starting to come around(personal savings rising), but it is worrisome because our elected officials still DON'T GET IT. I imagine the U.S. gov't has no worries. They will either:
1) Print money till it becomes worthless (my 401k will be worthless also).
2) Declare Force Majeure and simply not repay the debt (my 401k will be worthless also).

People keep talking about putting the next generation in debt. How naieve, who are they kidding, we will never pay off the debt in the true sense of the word. We either print our way out of debt or declare Force Majeure.

So, either way I am screwed if I have any cash. I am thinking now is the time to again, go against the majority. Before, I saved and scrimped to pay a 15 year mortgage, while neighbors had reverse amortization, blah blah blah. Now everyone wants to save. But credit is at all time low cost (near 0%) and with the real possiblity of a dollar crash and at least high inflation, if I max out credit now inflation will at least make that 'real' debt much lower in the future. Now is the time to own hard assets.

Regarding China. Thanks to Leland for giving me some hints on what to expect here. I am in China on business for the first time, having spent considerable time in Japan also on business. I can say, after being here, that I am NOT impressed. I do not think this 'giant' will come to conquer the world, not in the least. They work hard, like slaves, if that is a life then they can have it. And although they work hard, they don't create anything. They want to copy, and make cheap. They don't come up with new ideas. This is what will hold them back, no, they will not conquer the world. Heck, most people I meet here are from Taiwan, family still in Taiwan. They are just here to exploit the cheap Chinese labor, gotta love it!

Enough rambling, 1 too many Guiness here in China. Thank God for Arthur Guiness. Looked at the bottom of the can tonight, stamped date showed 04/01/2009. Couldn't help but think, the jokes on me, here in China drinking a Guiness. Maybe God does have a sense of humor after all. :hail:
/Mike

[H2O_MAN]

Originally Posted by longwoodklon

Enough rambling, 1 too many Guinness here in China. Thank God for Arthur Guinness. Looked at the bottom of the can tonight, stamped date showed 04/01/2009. Couldn't help but think, the jokes on me, here in China drinking a Guinness. Maybe God does have a sense of humor after all. :hail:
/Mike

[Go Flames Go]

Originally Posted by H2O_MAN

" The government is getting more and more deeply involved in business, even taking controlling interests in some private companies. The Obama administration is trying to "make policy" for private companies they do not control, but merely "help" with "infusions of capital," as in the recent call for salary caps for certain CEOs. So government power is growing at the expense of corporations.

But that's not socialism. Socialism rests on a firm theoretical bedrock: the abolition of private property. I haven't heard anyone this side of Barney Frank calling for any such thing. What is happening now-and Newsweek is honest enough to say so down in the body of the article-is an expansion of the state's role, an increase in public/private joint ventures and partnerships, and much more state regulation of business. Yes, it's very "European," and some of the Europeans even call it "social democracy," but it isn't.

It's fascism. "

They had to get involved because those businesses would have collapsed. Plus, the government owns preferred shares, which have no voting interest, so they cant influence the business decisions that are made. They can however, influence how the money they invested is used. If I was one of the CEO’s at one of the bailed out organizations I don’t think I would be complaining, they do still have a job after all. To top it off, it was their poor decision making that got them into the position in the first place. This is the government using, but also trying to protect, your tax dollars for your benefit. Plus, the bailouts may end up being a positive investment for the US tax payer, the Goldman pref shares have already been paid out and at a premium and it looks like some of the other major entities will buy back the shares early as well.

Overspending and capital (dollar) depreciation may not be entirely a bad thing either. China owns a tremendous amount of the USA debt in USA currency, the deflation of this currency actually deflates the value of the investment. I am not saying that it is a positive to owe a ton of money to a communist country, but it is a different way to look at it. When the US is down so is their investment. Plus, the USA government has access to the biggest tax pool in the world, when the economy actually turns and the war spending curtails things can get back to “state” of equilibrium. Further, China depends on the health of the biggest consumer; they are a manufacturing power house, but little more and they have a lot of mouths to feed.

[H2O_MAN]

Originally Posted by longwoodklon

Also agree 100% with H2O man, let's try this definition of Fascism from Wiki:
---------------------------
Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state.[7] Fascist governments forbid and suppress openness and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[8] Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.[9]

In the economic sphere, many fascist leaders have claimed to support a "Third Way" in economic policy, which they believed superior to both the rampant individualism of unrestrained capitalism and the severe control of state communism.[10][11] This was to be achieved by establishing significant government control over business and labour (Mussolini called his nation's system "the corporate state").[12][13] No common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any concise definition.
------------------------
Let's see:
Disagree with Obama, you are confused or a racist. Gov't is here to SAVE us.
Obama admin. now telling private business how to run, how much to pay, etc..

Looks like Fascism to me. If it looks like Fascism, smells like Fascism, sounds like Fascism, it must be Fascism. It's what I've used to describe this admin. since the beginning, not necessarily socialism, but fascism.

Thank you!

[longwoodklon]

Originally Posted by Go Flames Go

They had to get involved because those businesses would have collapsed. Plus, the government owns preferred shares, which have no voting interest, so they cant influence the business decisions that are made. They can however, influence how the money they invested is used. If I was one of the CEO’s at one of the bailed out organizations I don’t think I would be complaining, they do still have a job after all. To top it off, it was their poor decision making that got them into the position in the first place. This is the government using, but also trying to protect, your tax dollars for your benefit. Plus, the bailouts may end up being a positive investment for the US tax payer, the Goldman pref shares have already been paid out and at a premium and it looks like some of the other major entities will buy back the shares early as well.

Overspending and capital (dollar) depreciation may not be entirely a bad thing either. China owns a tremendous amount of the USA debt in USA currency, the deflation of this currency actually deflates the value of the investment. I am not saying that it is a positive to owe a ton of money to a communist country, but it is a different way to look at it. When the US is down so is their investment. Plus, the USA government has access to the biggest tax pool in the world, when the economy actually turns and the war spending curtails things can get back to “state” of equilibrium. Further, China depends on the health of the biggest consumer; they are a manufacturing power house, but little more and they have a lot of mouths to feed.

You do know it's been stated that many instituitions were FORCED(Pressured) to accept bailout money. And that many institutions have tried to repay it but have been refused, gov't wants to keep them under their control. And that Obama is actually trying to convert Preferred shares to Common shares in many cases, wonder why huh?. And that in the Chrysler deal, Obama forced banks holding Secured Bonds to accept less than face value (which is the whole point of making SECURED loans, you get first dibs in bankruptcy) so that the union obligations (Unsecured) could be fulfilled. Now the Union owns Chrysler, yet they are the PROBLEM. If the gov't can come in and supersede SECURED creditors rights at will, do we think banks are going to be MORE willing to lend? Give me a break.

These are all facts. And you'd have us believe that Obama did what is necessary? For what, complete gov't control over private industry? yeah, then I'd agree.

You buy into the whole, too big to fail scam. It's a scam the BOTH Republicans and Democrats would have us believe, they are both liars. If a company runs itself into the ground and goes bankrupt, it send a message that you need to be prudent with your business or else you will fail. If we bail out these irresponisble businesses, what's the incentive to change? How can we expect them NOT to do the same thing over and over? I choose a TRUE capitalist economy (fail/ succeed) over a gov't controlled one any day, but that day has long passed I think.

Regarding the dollar depreciation. No sh!t sherlock. That's what we are saying, easy to pay off debt if you run the printing press non-stop. This is a great thing for the gov't, not so great for those of us trying to save for retirement, and choosing to be responsible with our finances. The fact that no one talks about this in inflation indexes is outright trickery and lies, imo. I would have some hope that we could actually pay DOWN the debt if this crappy gov't could balance the budget for even 1 year. Instead, it just gets worse and worse (and the S.S. problem hasn't really hit us yet). I blame Bush for this just as much as Obama, but it's a fact Obama is growing the debt at a much faster rate.

Whatever. I am just a squirrel trying to keep my little nut (401k) from being stolen out from under me. Where in other countries(like Argentina) they've actually confiscated them outright, I think the U.S. is much smarter, much sneakier. They will inflate it all away. End result is the same.

/Mike

[Leland]

Originally Posted by H2O_MAN

Let's focus on what Obamanomics is doing to the GDP here in the states.

Ummm, GDP is up 3.5% this year.

[Leland]

Originally Posted by longwoodklon

Preach it leland, I agree 100%. I got 7 years left on my 15 year loan. Man, you make a shitload of money. I got 3 kids, and papa needs a new pair of shoes, help a brother out.

Regarding China. Thanks to Leland for giving me some hints on what to expect here. I am in China on business for the first time, having spent considerable time in Japan also on business. I can say, after being here, that I am NOT impressed. I do not think this 'giant' will come to conquer the world, not in the least. They work hard, like slaves, if that is a life then they can have it. And although they work hard, they don't create anything. They want to copy, and make cheap. They don't come up with new ideas. This is what will hold them back, no, they will not conquer the world. Heck, most people I meet here are from Taiwan, family still in Taiwan. They are just here to exploit the cheap Chinese labor, gotta love it!

Let me help you out: I get a 40% bonus when I work in China. Look at it this way: You're not going to live any longer after being there. Maybe shorter, but I can guarantee it's not going to be longer. Anyway, i think you've found the answer: America should no longer be considered the only market for your expertise. We just got a whole bunch of new orders, send me a PM and I'll see what I can do. We're always looking for experienced engineers.

I'm glad my China pointers were helpful. I see you've already noticed a couple of things about China that are very poinient. First, they spend 10, 12 or more hours a day at work and accomplish almost nothing--they're present but not very effective. Are the guys there even getting paid? Every time I've worked in China for any amount of time, there was always instances where the company didn't pay its people.

On the copying....that's what they do best. I have this theory about languages: The more complex a language, the more innovative the people. China: No grammar, no alphabet--just a bunch of symbols to be memorized and regurgitated over & over. Meanwhile, the most complicated language I can think of is German. Man, was German hard to learn (and English is a derivative!!!!). Anyway, from an early age, speakers of German, Anglo or Romance languages are having to logically put together consonants & vowels to make sounds that form words. Then they have to put together these words with complex grammatical forms to make sentences & paragraphs.

Here's some mandarin to help you out:

Fuyuan: Waiter
Pi-zho bingda: beer, cold
Lian-ga: 2, say yee-ga if you're beenin' a wuss
Mayo: no, also the most common word you'll hear in China.....i.e., do you have cold beer? Mayo.
Buhau: Bad, you'll get a lot of use out of this.....

[H2O_MAN]

Originally Posted by Leland

Ummm, GDP is up 3.5% this year.

Proof?

Obamanomics is killing this Constitutional Republic.

[Frankenstein]

Originally Posted by H2O_MAN

Proof?

Obamanomics is killing this Constitutional Republic.

Year over year it is down 2.3%, but quarter to quarter it's up 3.5%. If you pay attention to economics, you should be aware of this. Numerous sources will demonstrate this. There are questions about stimulus spending being the only cause, or is there a fundamental improvement, will the drop in value of US$ increase the cost of imports, or will that be a good things, what will happen with employment, etc., etc.

"Obamanomics is killing the Constitutional Republic" is a nice Beck/Limbaugh talking point but unfortunately doesn't mean much except as an inflammatory statement. Whether it's true or not is probably a matter of political perspective. It's handy to blame all ills on the sitting president when things are going wrong, and give all credit to him when the economy is doing well but of course there are many other factors.

A few references and quotes below:


U.S. Gross Domestic Product GDP Forecast

_______________________


News Release: Gross Domestic Product
Real gross domestic product -- the output of goods and services produced by labor and property
located in the United States -- increased at an annual rate of 3.5 percent in the third quarter of 2009,
(that is, from the second quarter to the third quarter), according to the "advance" estimate released by the
Bureau of Economic Analysis. In the second quarter, real GDP decreased 0.7 percent.
________________________________

United States GDP Growth Rate

In the third quarter of 2008 [sic], United States economy expended 3.5% qoq, indicating that the worst of the recession may be over. However, for number of Americans struggling to find a job and make ends meet, the only sign of health of the economy would be an improvement in labor market.
*note: error in date should read 2009

[H2O_MAN]

You really are narrow minded.

"Obamanomics is killing the Constitutional Republic" is my original thought, Beck, Limbaugh and others are welcome to use it as a talking point if they wish.

[H2O_MAN]

Obamanomics, Obama/Pelosicare and the agenda that the Obama administration has clearly
posses a greater threat to this country than any threat from Islamic extremists terrorists.

[Hickleberry]

Originally Posted by H2O_MAN

Obamanomics, Obama/Pelosicare and the agenda that the Obama administration has clearly
posses a greater threat to this country than any threat from Islamic extremists terrorists.

One day I'll figure out which planet you are from. Healthcare will only improve the lives of people who do not have insurance, its not going to blow up buildings...

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

[Go Flames Go]

Originally Posted by H2O_MAN

Obamanomics, Obama/Pelosicare and the agenda that the Obama administration has clearly
posses a greater threat to this country than any threat from Islamic extremists terrorists.

Hey, I have a great idea, why dont you run next term? The way you present most of your arguments I am sure you would be shoe in.

People who complain but offer solutions can, in some cases, be called problem solvers. People who just complain, well... Dude, we get it, you hate the guy and wish he wasnt president, but he is. Either fiqure out a way to work with it or quit complaining about it. And dont bother pulling up a 1,000 articals about how terrible a job he is doing cause someone could find another 1,000 claiming he is saving the world.

You still got at least 3 years of misery ahead.:tinfoil3: