U.S. vs. Canadian new car prices

[kdmiller]

The "smart a$$" remark I was refering to was the "little thing called ebay.....ever hear of it?" and "just turn off all your lights...." at any rate I wasn't intending to set anyone off, I have just seen far to many people just looking at prices and saying there is soooo much difference, then having them actually compare feature for feature it comes a lot closer (and yet there is still too much of a gap). The other thing that gets me is that many, not all, but many actually have convinced themselves it is the dealer making the money and that the dealer can discount enough to make up the difference when that is certainly not the case. Though I wish it was as we could then do something about it because this issue iis probably more frusterating as a dealer than as a consumer simply for the fact that the consumer can do something about it, we as dealers can't. Sorry if I offended anyone it wasn't my intent, I am just the kind of guy who hates wasting time and effort trying to change things that we have no control over, if I really thought this was a long term problem and didn't like it I could just change jobs instead of crying about it.

Big Steve, I am sorry if I offended you, like I said, I wasn't looking to get in to a heated arguement with anyone!!! I probably was just venting as I hear about this every day and people only look at things from the negative side, and don't remember the good things.

As for a sloution, Stuball you are absolutely correct, the two have to go hand in hand, if Toyota Canada actually does lower the invoice price dealers will have to follow suit and lower the selling prices, however what happens then when the dollar goes back the other way? Could get messy!

[stuball]

Originally Posted by kdmiller

The "smart a$$" remark I was refering to was the "little thing called ebay.....ever hear of it?" and "just turn off all your lights...." at any rate I wasn't intending to set anyone off, I have just seen far to many people just looking at prices and saying there is soooo much difference, then having them actually compare feature for feature it comes a lot closer (and yet there is still too much of a gap). The other thing that gets me is that many, not all, but many actually have convinced themselves it is the dealer making the money and that the dealer can discount enough to make up the difference when that is certainly not the case. Though I wish it was as we could then do something about it because this issue iis probably more frusterating as a dealer than as a consumer simply for the fact that the consumer can do something about it, we as dealers can't. Sorry if I offended anyone it wasn't my intent, I am just the kind of guy who hates wasting time and effort trying to change things that we have no control over, if I really thought this was a long term problem and didn't like it I could just change jobs instead of crying about it.

Big Steve, I am sorry if I offended you, like I said, I wasn't looking to get in to a heated arguement with anyone!!! I probably was just venting as I hear about this every day and people only look at things from the negative side, and don't remember the good things.

As for a sloution, Stuball you are absolutely correct, the two have to go hand in hand, if Toyota Canada actually does lower the invoice price dealers will have to follow suit and lower the selling prices, however what happens then when the dollar goes back the other way? Could get messy!

"What happens when the dollar goes the other way?" Then Canadian dealers start getting more sales from Americans.

Stuball

[kdmiller]

Originally Posted by stuball

"What happens when the dollar goes the other way?" Then Canadian dealers start getting more sales from Americans.

Stuball

You are right on the money, thing is you won't hear us complaining about it when things go the other way. I guess it is just a fact, when things are not in your/our favor we are all upset about it, when everything goes our way we are just content and say nothing rather than good things!

.....such is life

[SFTundraMan]

Originally Posted by stuball

And Toyota having U.S. dealers sign agreements not to sell to Canadians is illegal under NAFTA. There is a class-action lawsuit presently being launched in Canada against several auto manufacturers for the prices they are charging Canadians.

Well that is what free enterprise is all about. Toyota has the right to sell cars for as much or as little to whoever they want to. I am not saying I agree with the rules. Because I sure would have been sending some Tundras up north if I could. But just because someone decides to sue someone doesnt mean anything. I get at least one class action suit letter a year asking me if I want to be a part of some BS suit. So that doesnt weigh any value with me.

The real issue is not that we cant sell to you but why they have to charge more up there. That is what the beef should be.

[SFTundraMan]

If we all just want to complain about something. Why is it that I have to pay $685 destination charge to get a truck or car that is built 20 miles away, lol

[stuball]

Originally Posted by SFTundraMan

Well that is what free enterprise is all about. Toyota has the right to sell cars for as much or as little to whoever they want to. I am not saying I agree with the rules. Because I sure would have been sending some Tundras up north if I could. But just because someone decides to sue someone doesnt mean anything. I get at least one class action suit letter a year asking me if I want to be a part of some BS suit. So that doesnt weigh any value with me.

The real issue is not that we cant sell to you but why they have to charge more up there. That is what the beef should be.

You're right, Toyota has the right to sell cars for as much or as little as they want. And if there was no free trade agreement in place, then Toyota would be able to sell to whoever they want. Further, if Toyota did not sell vehicles in Canada or manufacture vehicles in Canada, they could get away with what they are doing now even with the Free Trade agreement in place. However, the fact remains that they do sell and manufacture vehicles in Canada and that there is a Free Trade agreement in place, and what Toyota is doing under NAFTA is illegal.

Destination charges in Canada are approx. $1390.00, more than double of yours.

Stuball

[kdmiller]

Latest on the Toyota.ca website.

"MAKE THINGS BETTER: WHY A MADE-FOR-CANADA TOYOTA IS MORE THAN JUST A GREAT VEHICLEToyota may be one of the largest automakers in the world, but we achieved this success one customer at a time. That's why when you purchase or lease a made-for-Canada Toyota car or truck you get more than a great vehicle. You also enjoy the services and support that only Toyota Canada and your Toyota Dealer can provide, to make your ownership experience the best that it can be.
There are many advantages in purchasing or leasing a made-for-Canada Toyota from an authorized Toyota Dealer. Here are a few.
Canadian vehicle specifications
When Toyota Canada considers equipment on Toyota vehicles for the Canadian market, we select certain options and features, on a model-by-model basis, that we believe are best suited for Canada's challenging climatic and driving conditions. These may differ from equipment and options selected for vehicles distributed and sold in the U.S. market.
Customers might believe that the only real difference between Canadian and US vehicles relates to vehicle gauges (which are metric in Canada and imperial in the United States). Depending on model, however, made-for-Canada Toyota vehicles may include any of the following features:

• Heavy-duty heaters, batteries, alternators, and starters;
• High capacity window washer fluid reservoirs;
• More robust weather stripping and seals;
• Added paint chip protection;
• Mudguards;
• All-season tires;
• An outside temperature gauge;
• Heated mirrors;
• Towing packages.

A streamlined purchasing or leasing process
Only Made-for-Canada Toyota vehicles are eligible for new vehicle promotions, programs, and incentives offered by Toyota Financial Services in Canada, including:

• Financing and leasing programs;
• Lease Renewal;
• Multiple Security Deposits.

In addition, only Made-for-Canada Toyota vehicles may qualify for other financial incentives or programs offered by Toyota Canada, including:

• The Toyota Canada Graduate Program;
• Toyota Canada Fleet Elite Incentives.

Tax/government considerations
Only Made-for-Canada Toyota vehicles may be eligible for certain incentives provided by the Canadian federal and/or certain provincial governments. These include:

• The federal eco-Auto rebate for fuel efficient vehicles;
• Provincial sales tax breaks and rebates for hybrid vehicles and other fuel efficient vehicles.

Vehicles purchased in the United States may not qualify for the above-mentioned "green" incentives AND the purchaser of a US vehicle may still be required to pay the following, in addition to any state taxes or charges imposed on the US purchase:

• Excise tax on fuel inefficient vehicles;
• GST and provincial sales tax;
• Import duties;
• Any costs to modify or retrofit a U.S. vehicle to ensure it complies with Canadian regulations, including, for instance, the installation of daytime running lights; and the installation of an enhanced vehicle immobilization system.

Peace of mind benefits
Purchasing or leasing a made-for-Canada Toyota vehicle includes peace of mind:

• Toyota Canada Inc. provides vehicle owners with Toyota Roadside Assistance (24-hour, every day of the year) for three years.

Warranty/servicing benefits
Canadian Toyota Dealers will honour the new vehicle warranty as provided on vehicles sold in the U.S.A. However, made-for-Canada Toyota vehicles may enjoy certain warranty and servicing benefits not necessarily available in the US. These include:

• Special warranty policy adjustments and extensions from Toyota Canada Inc. that are specific to made-for-Canada vehicles and which may include no-cost or reduced-cost replacements of components to ensure owner satisfaction;
• A streamlined warranty process: When a Canadian Dealer works on a vehicle covered by a U.S. warranty, it may take longer to confirm coverage, secure approvals and process the repairs;
• Access to Replacement Part and Components: Toyota Canada only stocks replacement parts and components for Canadian-specified vehicles so that repairs can be completed in a timely manner. Toyota vehicles distributed in the U.S. may have equipment or components unique to the US market which may require additional lead time to secure replacement parts resulting in additional time to carry out any necessary repairs or servicing;
• Toyota Canada Inc. offers optional extended coverage for servicing and repairs. This coverage cannot be purchased for vehicles sold in the United States;
• Special Service Campaigns: Owners of Toyota vehicles purchased in the United States may not receive timely notification of safety-related service campaigns. In addition, where a safety recall is specific to a US vehicle, a Canadian dealer may not be able to carry out any necessary repairs quickly if replacement parts are not readily available in Canada. Securing replacement parts from US sources may require additional lead time resulting in delays in carrying out any necessary repairs or servicing.

A trusted relationship
Buying or leasing a made-for-Canada Toyota establishes a trusted relationship that will last throughout the ownership cycle:

• Customers gain access to Canadian Toyota Dealers' expertise on made-for-Canada vehicle specifications;
• Customers benefit from Canadian Toyota Dealers' knowledge of Canadian support and service programs;
• Customers are automatically enrolled in Club Toyota for online tracking of a vehicle's service history, customer financial information and warranty information."

Still not sure if this will justify the difference for most, but there is at least some value there.

(Quoted from TOYOTA CANADA : TOYOTA.CA)

[SFTundraMan]

Originally Posted by stuball

You're right, Toyota has the right to sell cars for as much or as little as they want. And if there was no free trade agreement in place, then Toyota would be able to sell to whoever they want. Further, if Toyota did not sell vehicles in Canada or manufacture vehicles in Canada, they could get away with what they are doing now even with the Free Trade agreement in place. However, the fact remains that they do sell and manufacture vehicles in Canada and that there is a Free Trade agreement in place, and what Toyota is doing under NAFTA is illegal.

Destination charges in Canada are approx. $1390.00, more than double of yours.

Stuball

Honestly I dont claim to know a damn thing about nafta but what i do know is big brother tells me this is the way it is and that makes it factual to me. Many laws are up for interpretation and neither one of ours is what matters. That will be up to the judge to decide. And I could really care less what my destination charge is . I just wanted to see what it is like to bitch about something. I need more practice. I am not that good at it, lol

The thing that is interesting is that it isnt just between countries. There are a ton of rules between states. You cant go up to Oregon and buy a car tax free and drive it back to California tax free. That doesnt seem fair either but that is the way it is. I dont make the rules, I just choose to keep my job and play by the ones placed in front of me.

Again, I wish I could sell directly up north. I wouldnt have any inventory at all right now if I could

[SFTundraMan]

error

[Big Steve 63]

[quote=Big Steve 63;793709]
I work at a coal mine, and if you don't want to support the company i work for i am OK with that, turn out all your lites, unplug all your appliances. We supply coal directly to a power plant.

Yes, that was a lousy comment i made, and i apologize.
I do however stand by my ebay comment, in my mind it is a perfect example of how the "local" economies have to compete with pricing. I can give you many examples of how retail at my local level (Estevan SK) has had to be more competitive or lose a sale to a company that has an internet sales dept. The big box stores have made a difference in pricing at the retail level. It is the way of life now, best pricing gets the business.
To quote Norm from the 80's TV show Cheers.
"It's a dog eat dog world out there, and I'm wearing Milkbone underwear".
15 years ago, there were not forums like this one for individuals to share information.
Knowledge is power.

[stuball]

Originally Posted by SFTundraMan

Honestly I dont claim to know a damn thing about nafta but what i do know is big brother tells me this is the way it is and that makes it factual to me. Many laws are up for interpretation and neither one of ours is what matters. That will be up to the judge to decide. And I could really care less what my destination charge is . I just wanted to see what it is like to bitch about something. I need more practice. I am not that good at it, lol

The thing that is interesting is that it isnt just between countries. There are a ton of rules between states. You cant go up to Oregon and buy a car tax free and drive it back to California tax free. That doesnt seem fair either but that is the way it is. I dont make the rules, I just choose to keep my job and play by the ones placed in front of me.

Again, I wish I could sell directly up north. I wouldnt have any inventory at all right now if I could

The only recourse that "Big Brother" has is to bully the dealers and if the dealers don't comply; "well, we'll send you inventory when he!! freezes over." Big Brother has no legal recourse against the dealerships for selling abroad, and all they can do is threaten to be nasty to the dealers.

However, there is power in groups and if all the Toyota dealers in the U.S. got together and told Toyota, "we want to sell to whomever we want", then what could Toyota do: punish everybody or shut down the plants?

As far as taxes go, I don't have to pay state taxes where I'm buying from and will only be paying the federal and provincial taxes in Canada. Anything else I purchase outside of the vehicle would be subject to taxes. For example, I've purchased an A.R.E. tonneau cover from from one of their dealers in Montana because Montana doesn't have state tax. I will be picking up the tonneau cover on my trip home. I still have to pay the Canadian taxes on the tonneau cover but no state tax.

Stuball

[SFTundraMan]

Originally Posted by stuball

The only recourse that "Big Brother" has is to bully the dealers and if the dealers don't comply; "well, we'll send you inventory when he!! freezes over." Big Brother has no legal recourse against the dealerships for selling abroad, and all they can do is threaten to be nasty to the dealers.

However, there is power in groups and if all the Toyota dealers in the U.S. got together and told Toyota, "we want to sell to whomever we want", then what could Toyota do: punish everybody or shut down the plants?

As far as taxes go, I don't have to pay state taxes where I'm buying from and will only be paying the federal and provincial taxes in Canada. Anything else I purchase outside of the vehicle would be subject to taxes. For example, I've purchased an A.R.E. tonneau cover from from one of their dealers in Montana because Montana doesn't have state tax. I will be picking up the tonneau cover on my trip home. I still have to pay the Canadian taxes on the tonneau cover but no state tax.

Stuball

you must not be buying the car in California. As I stated, it varies state to state. In California, if you butt is in the drivers seat and you drive it on a California road even if only to drive it out of the state, you have to pay state tax.

As far as the other subject, I dont know how successful we would be selling cars if we didnt have any to sell. lol

So Big Brother rules appy

[stuball]

Originally Posted by SFTundraMan

you must not be buying the car in California. As I stated, it varies state to state. In California, if you butt is in the drivers seat and you drive it on a California road even if only to drive it out of the state, you have to pay state tax.

As far as the other subject, I dont know how successful we would be selling cars if we didnt have any to sell. lol

So Big Brother rules appy

You would probably be more successful than Toyota would as you could fall back on used car sales. Toyota, on the other hand, relies solely on the dealers to make their money. And especially with the market being so huge in the U.S. I believe the U.S. dealers, collectively and sticking together, hold the power in any negotiation. Individually, you have zip and are at their mercy.

Stuball

[Cliffy1]

Over the years, I've seen this same situation in reverse. US dealers would buy Siennas and 4Runners from Canadian dealers and import them for sale. Toyota threw a fit. It really does mess up the distribution systems. There is not as much continuity in the VIN system as you would think either and when a Sienna came in for service, it always left the service guys scratching their heads. It did cause some warranty problems, but I suspect they eventually got worked out.

In order for a US dealer to sell them, they had to first title them in the name of the dealership. This meant they could only be sold as used cars. There was and still is some dispute about the odometers since they had to be replaced with US ones at the border. Some have argued that this constitutes odometer fraud if not disclosed and if its disclosed, its the same as an altered odometer when titled. That makes for MUCH lower resale values.

Its a complicated issue. There is also the matter of financing. If a car is financed, the title work must be done by the dealer and the title must be sent to the bank. So how does that work for a car going to Canada? Can the US dealer apply for a Canadian title? Will it be a US or Canadian bank that will carry the note? What happens if a customer doesn't make payments? Can a US repossession company operate in Canada? Can a repossession order be enforced in Canada?

The easy solution would seem to be to only accept certified US funds, but there's a catch to that. We can't turn down a sale based on the source of funds with a couple of exceptions. We can't discriminate and say we only sell to cash customers.

Like I said, its complicated. NAFTA is only part of the story. Part is the logistics of dealing with a titled and financed product. Titled goods have different rules and procedures than non-titled items.

[stuball]

Originally Posted by Cliffy1

Over the years, I've seen this same situation in reverse. US dealers would buy Siennas and 4Runners from Canadian dealers and import them for sale. Toyota threw a fit. It really does mess up the distribution systems. There is not as much continuity in the VIN system as you would think either and when a Sienna came in for service, it always left the service guys scratching their heads. It did cause some warranty problems, but I suspect they eventually got worked out.

In order for a US dealer to sell them, they had to first title them in the name of the dealership. This meant they could only be sold as used cars. There was and still is some dispute about the odometers since they had to be replaced with US ones at the border. Some have argued that this constitutes odometer fraud if not disclosed and if its disclosed, its the same as an altered odometer when titled. That makes for MUCH lower resale values.

Its a complicated issue. There is also the matter of financing. If a car is financed, the title work must be done by the dealer and the title must be sent to the bank. So how does that work for a car going to Canada? Can the US dealer apply for a Canadian title? Will it be a US or Canadian bank that will carry the note? What happens if a customer doesn't make payments? Can a US repossession company operate in Canada? Can a repossession order be enforced in Canada?

The easy solution would seem to be to only accept certified US funds, but there's a catch to that. We can't turn down a sale based on the source of funds with a couple of exceptions. We can't discriminate and say we only sell to cash customers.

Like I said, its complicated. NAFTA is only part of the story. Part is the logistics of dealing with a titled and financed product. Titled goods have different rules and procedures than non-titled items.

I don't know anything about the financing part. I am not financing my Tundra and will be wiring the money when required. I do not know of any U.S. auto dealers financing vehicles going outside of the U.S. I had assumed it would be cash sales only and that any financing for vehicles brought into Canada would have to be done by the buyer in Canada at Canadian financial instutions. I would think that U.S. financial institutions would have the right to say yes or no to a loan for non-U.S. citizens. And I think this right should exist if there would be road blocks preventing them going after default loans outside of the U.S. But, as I said I know nothing about the financing part.

Stuball