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Pricing and DealersDiscussions that are specific to vehicle pricing, preferred dealer pricing, current incentives, rebates, and experiences.
This is a discussion thread titled "Unknown Dealer Charges??", within the Pricing and Dealers forum, part of the Marketplace Forums category.
Can somebody tell me what thse following terms are and if they are negotiable?
1% Financial Reseve MSRP - $281
thanks
From Cliffy1:
"Now, as to your specific questions, the fees you listed are all part of the invoice.
TDA is not refunded. Its a real fee that the dealer pays to the regional distributor. Because its a regional fee, most on-line sources don't tell you what it is, but it is real.
WFR and HB are refunded to the dealer at a later date. They are used to cover various expenses associated with the vehicle. Most salesmen are not paid on these amounts."
TDA = Toyota Dealer's Assoc. (Regional Advertising Fee / $ varies by region)
Holdback (HB) = 2% of Base MSRP (Money dealer pays upfront, but is refunded after vehicle is sold)
Wholesale Financial Reserve (WFR) = 1% of Base MSRP (Floor planning allowance-covers interest incurred on inventory)
Are the fees negotiable? Everything is negotiable, but the dealer ultimately is the one who decides how much/little he'll let his vehicle go for.
Cliffy1 mentioned in a previous thread that when he bought his Tundra, he paid invoice minus hb & wfr, but paid the tda.
I recommend you go back and read through this entire thread - lot's of good 411. Or, use the search feature.
So to recoup the answer. You should be able to negotiate and eliminate the Dealer holdback and the WFR, is that correct? And we will have to pay the TDA? That was the question. Are they or are they not negotiable? Thanks guys.
So to recoup the answer. You should be able to negotiate and eliminate the Dealer holdback and the WFR, is that correct? And we will have to pay the TDA? That was the question. Are they or are they not negotiable? Thanks guys.
Compliments of SFTundraman:
"they are legit parts of the invoice, but everything can still be negotiated. You can offer what you want to, they can say yes or no. It will always be about supply and demand."
It's really not a matter of if they'll remove the fees per se... it's simply how far below invoice they'd be willing to sell you the vehicle for. If you know that holdback and wfr account for say about $1000, then when offering a price, you might say that you want to go $1000 back (below invoice).
Those fees/charges were already paid by the dealer, so of course they're going to tell you that is what they paid for the vehicle, but as Cliffy1 and SFT have already pointed out (numerous times), the dealer's invoice is not his "dead" cost. The invoice is a consumer's basis to compare pricing and ultimately, supply and demand of the vehicle will dictate how much they'll sell you the vehicle. Sounds cliche', but it's the truth.
I illustrated what Cliffy1 (a dealer) paid for his own product to give you an example of an aggressive deal. In some cases, people will pay more, in some cases, people may pay even less, but there is so much more involved to how much a dealer will sell his product for.
Go back and read these two links posted by Cliffy 1:
I appreciate the re-cap TunTac. I do end up repeating myself a good bit on this subject. Unfortunately, we in this industry did it to ourselves. If I could go back in time and strangle the first guy who advertised a price in relation to invoice, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Asking if you can negotiate the holdback and WFR is like asking if you can negotiate the license plate bracket. The question doesn't make sense. You, as a consumer can negotiate as much as you want. You can try to get the price as low as possible. If you think it strengthens your argument, you can point out that the dealer is getting those amounts back at a later date.
A couple of things to reiterate... only a dealer pays invoice. Unless you have a franchise agreement with Toyota, any the invoice will not appear in your name. Invoice is paid once and that is done by the originating dealer.
When you negotiate a price with a dealer, what you are really doing is determining the value of the vehicle to you. If the value to you is less than invoice, that's fine. If the value to you is more than invoice, that's fine as well. The dealer will be trying to decide what the value is to him at the same time. He may know that his product is hot or not and he can be right or wrong.
The only reason that invoice should ever come up is so that you as a consumer have an idea as to the price, relative to another truck at another dealership which may have different equipment. Its the only consistent number you as a consumer have to compare prices. The sticker price can work, but because different accessories have different mark-ups, its less reliable than invoice.
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Now a sales manager at Stafford Toyota in Stafford VA. Call 540-720-4700 and ask for Steve Clifford... they will not know who "Cliffy" is.
So as I read this stuff it comes down to people want to know what the dealer pays so they know how low the dealer will go. At the same time they will not ever know that in most cases as it seems to be kept close to the vest at best.
Also seems that there are many other variables involved and mabey times that we could buy a vehicle close to what the dealer paid. Other times they may make a very nice prophet on the same vehicle.
Then if you trade a vehicle only the difference matters as they could sell you a new one at cost and make a bunch off of yours or just give you wholesale and have a wholesaler buy it.
Looks to me like do your homework get an idea what they are going for where you live and if your happy never look back. They can't make you close the deal you can walk anytime. If they play games with me I walk. I like straight price talk I don't need to sit at a desk while he/she talks to the boss. If thats the case I need to talk to the boss.
Never fall in love with a vehicle you don't own. There are many brands and dealers. Sometimes best to sleep on it. A good sales person will not have a problem with you waiting. I would tread careful of any that do. I am in sales (not cars) and yes I like to close the deal, but if my price and product is good there is nothing to fear.
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Last edited by FLTundra06; 04-17-2008 at 10:16 PM.
So not many people are paying below invoice if the 3 fees (TDA, Dealer Holdback, and WFR) are included. For example if invoice is $35K including those fees, is anyone able to get these trucks for $33 or $34 not including rebates????
I have a dealer offering me $600 below invoice but the invoice includes all 3 fees and I am taking the financing so rebates aren't included. Should I take it and run with it?
So not many people are paying below invoice if the 3 fees (TDA, Dealer Holdback, and WFR) are included. For example if invoice is $35K including those fees, is anyone able to get these trucks for $33 or $34 not including rebates????
I have a dealer offering me $600 below invoice but the invoice includes all 3 fees and I am taking the financing so rebates aren't included. Should I take it and run with it?
Remembering that TDA is never refunded to the dealer, that's a very good price if its a truck you want and nothing is wrong with it. Your salesman isn't making much money on it and to him, its just a "stroke" at this point. Excluding his various volume bonuses (which can add up), he's probably making $50 on the deal. Take it and just help the guy out by giving him "excellent" scores on his survey.
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Now a sales manager at Stafford Toyota in Stafford VA. Call 540-720-4700 and ask for Steve Clifford... they will not know who "Cliffy" is.
So as I read this stuff it comes down to people want to know what the dealer pays so they know how low the dealer will go. At the same time they will not ever know that in most cases as it seems to be kept close to the vest at best.
Also seems that there are many other variables involved and mabey times that we could buy a vehicle close to what the dealer paid. Other times they may make a very nice prophet on the same vehicle.
Then if you trade a vehicle only the difference matters as they could sell you a new one at cost and make a bunch off of yours or just give you wholesale and have a wholesaler buy it.
Looks to me like do your homework get an idea what they are going for where you live and if your happy never look back. They can't make you close the deal you can walk anytime. If they play games with me I walk. I like straight price talk I don't need to sit at a desk while he/she talks to the boss. If thats the case I need to talk to the boss.
Never fall in love with a vehicle you don't own. There are many brands and dealers. Sometimes best to sleep on it. A good sales person will not have a problem with you waiting. I would tread careful of any that do. I am in sales (not cars) and yes I like to close the deal, but if my price and product is good there is nothing to fear.
That's a really good post. I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Now a sales manager at Stafford Toyota in Stafford VA. Call 540-720-4700 and ask for Steve Clifford... they will not know who "Cliffy" is.
the only thing that really matters is what the bottom line price is. Who cares what the fees are or arent. Perfect example. In California we have one of the , if not the lowest doc fee in the country. It is only $55. I had a customer that stated that he wont buy the car if he has to pay the doc fee. So I told him it is automatic and I will just lower the price another $55 so he is not really paying it. He said no, if the fee is on the contract, he wont buy it no matter how much I take off. I dont know if he ever bought a car or not but it wasnt from me.
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Cory Ellerbee
Truck Manager/Internet Sales Manager
San Francisco Toyota
(415) 395-6364 or corye@sftoyota.com
One the salesman I have been talking with offered to go "half and half" with me on the 2 holdbacks. I declined, so it is negotiable. Its a buyers market, gas wil be $4.50 soon and trucks are sitting on lots. There are deals to be had. Just have to be patient.
Well due to a couple of reasons and one ofthem being dealers wanting me to pay them 2 holdbacks and other charges, I went with a GMC Sierra. There is no way in the world I would ever pay holdbacks, flooring and inventory charges for a truck that will spend all of 1 day at the dealership.
Well due to a couple of reasons and one ofthem being dealers wanting me to pay them 2 holdbacks and other charges, I went with a GMC Sierra. There is no way in the world I would ever pay holdbacks, flooring and inventory charges for a truck that will spend all of 1 day at the dealership.
Wait a second - GM has a 3% holdback, and they holdback that percent based on the entire msrp less destination. Toyota has a 2% holdback on the base msrp + another 1% of the base msrp for the wfr for a total of 3%. The Toyota fees would actually be less when comparing two similar vehicles.
It's not uncommon for GM to dip well into their holdback. Oh yeah - GM also has two seperate ad fees tacked on to their invoice. Did the dealer tell you about those?
Wait a second - GM has a 3% holdback, and they holdback that percent based on the entire msrp less destination. Toyota has a 2% holdback on the base msrp + another 1% of the base msrp for the wfr for a total of 3%. The Toyota fees would actually be less when comparing two similar vehicles.
It's not uncommon for GM to dip well into their holdback. Oh yeah - GM also has two seperate ad fees tacked on to their invoice. Did the dealer tell you about those?
Actually he did and I told him I was not paying those and he took them off, plus GM has $4000 in rebates ot toyotas $3k and GM allowed me to use my $1500 discount for my GM card points earned, so I got around $5500 in rebates off of Invoice pricing and didnt pay any BS that the toyota guys wouldnt back off on.
Actually he did and I told him I was not paying those and he took them off, plus GM has $4000 in rebates ot toyotas $3k and GM allowed me to use my $1500 discount for my GM card points earned, so I got around $5500 in rebates off of Invoice pricing and didnt pay any BS that the toyota guys wouldnt back off on.
That's awesome - sounds like you got a great deal!
Were you a current GM owner to get that additional $2k (it was $2k factory + $2k loyalty, I believe)? I've had four Chevy's and I loved all of them. I love Toyota's too, but I always thought my Chevy's had a few extra bells and whistles than the Toyota. For example, things like satelite radio, leather wrapped stearing wheel, and auto dimming mirrors can be had on Chevy's that would be comparable to an SR5, but when buying a Toyota, you'd need to get the limited to get those few very handy items.
I had a 2000 Silverado LS ext cab 5.3L V-8 that I put 105k-miles on. I never had to change the brakes!! The truck was amazing, but I sold it to my neighbor and bought an '04 Silverado.
What was the msrp on your truck and what did they sell it too you for?
Btw... the rebate in SoCal on Tundra's went up to $4k for the month of May.
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-TunTac
Last edited by TunTac; 05-07-2008 at 02:41 AM.
Reason: Added a few things.
Re: Unknown Dealer Charges??
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