I made a deal for $200 over invoice for a 2005 Toyota Tundra... I did not see the invoice until now. They had to get the truck from another dealership so I was not sure what options would be on the truck.. hence the $200 over invoice price.
They send me a sheet on the price... it was over what I thought I should be paying. I used Edmonds and KBB web sites.
They then faxed me a copy of the invoice with Dealer and Retail costs...
The Retail side is
Base Cost + Total Accessories + Destination ... very simple and prices are at retail.
This is $1190 in addition to the Base + Accessories+ Destination cost.
What is "Wal. Financial Reserve", "TDA", "Dealer Holdback". Should I be paying those costs?
They are also adding in PI ($80) (get my truck ready I guess from the other dealership) + Transportation to get the Truck from another Dealership ($100) + My agreed price of $200 over invoice.
What is true invoice... it looks like they are throwing in another $1190 (or more) to the invoice cost.
What is going on? What should I be paying??? I am ready to kill this truck deal and go someplace else if they keep putting in these extra charges. Am I wrong?
the Dealer Holdback + Wal. Financial Reserve added to the Base model cost on the invoce is the same as edmunds invoice cost. They must just break these out on the invoice.
Is "TDA" an advertising cost? edmunds recommends paying everything on the invoice.
TDA is the infamous 'Toyota Dealer Advertising' that many dealers use to inflate their bottom line. Nix it, it's one of their costs of doing business.
'Dealer holdback' is what Toyota kicks back to the dealer after the sale, an additional profit. It is not something to be charged to the buyer. Nix it.
'Wholesale Financial Reserve' is defined a number of ways, including the interest the Dealer must pay the manufacturer on the car while it sits on the lot unsold. However they define it, nix it.
Unless you agreed in advance to the $100 transportation charge, nix it.
Car Buying Tips is a great site, and will show you how to get teh best deal and avoid these scams.
Toyota will show you dealers in your area and current promotions:
2005 Tundra New Cash Back or Special APR (includes D-cabs)
0.0% APR for 36 months
1.9% APR for 48 months
2.9% APR for 60 months
or up to $1250.00 cash back
Shop around. Anything smells bad just walk away smiling.
Thanks for the links Nucleus! I know some people who are turning in their lease next weekend. I'll be sure to send them a link to carbuyingtips.com .
As far as I remember, PI is something that some dealers charge to "prep" the car. It is supposed to be included as part of the destination fee. I got taken for that charge the 1st go around with my old tundra.
My understanding of dealer holdback is that it's money the dealer gets from the manufacturer to pay for financing the dealer pays on the truck until they can sell it. Normally I think it's 2-3% of the invoice price. To get the dealer holdback they have to sell a certain number of units every month. I've been told this why it's better to shop at the end of the month. If they haven't met that quota they are more likely to deal.
In my opinion. The dealer doesn't make a lot of money off the base invoice of a vehicle but they do make a killing on the options. I've come to accept that the dealer is going to make a minimum deal on all the cars & trucks. A minimum deal being the minimum over invoice they aren't going below.
For what it's worth I paid $33,800 for an 05' Tundra limited with navigation and pretty much everything else except the rear DVD and the side air bags. The sticker was $39,900.00. I got $6,100 off the sticker only because there was room to negotiate with all the options. If you buy a truck without any options your not going to have a lot of room to negotiate.
__________________
2006 Tundra V8 Salsa Red Pearl Dbl Cab, Limited 4x4, Leather Interior w/ Htd Captain Chairs, SRS Side Curtain Airbags, Moonroof, All weather guard, DRL's, LSD, Rear Audio, Overhead Console, Touch Screen DVD Navigation, Line-X, Husky Liners, VSE Bazooka Sub, Retrax Bed Cover.
Curiosity killed the cat but satisfaction brought him back.
How much off of the MSRP? The window sticker? That price is solid, since its on the window. Invoice is all baloney trying to confuse the buyer. How much off the window sticker are you getting? I got $3300 off on a base model, so you should be getting more than that.
I was told by the owner of my dealership that only KBB had Toyota's actual invoice prices. Just look at the invoice prices for your model and options that are on vehicle you are looking at.
I was told by the owner of my dealership that only KBB had Toyota's actual invoice prices. Just look at the invoice prices for your model and options that are on vehicle you are looking at.
Thank you Nucleus for the website... carbuyingtips.com It really explained what the dealers are up too!
I went there and now understand the invoice better.
Actually... The dealership will now drop the P.I. Fee ($80) and the Tranfer fee from the other dealer ($100).
Using the invoice +200 that I first agreed too ---- than I am actually under the recommended value of 5% over the True Invoice as shown on carbuyingtips.com so... I guess my deal is OK now. That is pretty funny since they are including the TDA (advertising fee) and the Whol. Financial Reserve in the invoice.
I guess I dont have to agree with that but as long as the bottom dollar is close to recommended I am OK.
Using the invoice +200 that I first agreed too ---- than I am actually under the recommended value of 5% over the True Invoice as shown on carbuyingtips.com so... I guess my deal is OK now. That is pretty funny since they are including the TDA (advertising fee) and the Whol. Financial Reserve in the invoice.
Doesn't sound right to me. TDA and reserve are classic scams. Check the invoice price on Edmunds or Car Prices. My deal is about 3% over with no TDA or scams.
Allright, here goes. You guys are not considering what it cost to run a dealership and pay all of the employees. The overhead is enormous, just the electric bill can be upwards of $10,000. Also, take a look at the lot. How many new cars do they have sitting there with their money tied up in. I assure you they aren't making interest on those vehicles. Some dealers "floor plan" there vehicles with a financial institution and I assure you, the dealer is paying interest on those new lot cars.
When you look at an invoice, you really are looking at the dealers cost for that vehicle. The days of "fake invoices" died in the 80s. Dealers are commonly audited on their invoice prices and their books in general. Yes, there is some built in cushion for the dealer. You ask about advertising, destination charges and holdback, etc. Those are TRUE costs to the dealer. Who do you think pays for the Toyota commercials on TV that aren't dealer branded? The DEALER does buy means of the advertising costs they are charged on the invoice. How about destination charges? How do you think they get to the lot? The dealer pays the trucking companies indirectly through the cost on the invoice. How about holdback. This is 2 or 3% of the actual cost of the vehicle from the PORT and is there to cover the cost of having the vehicle on the lot. The dealer only recovers this money IF the vehicle has been there at least 90 days and again, they aren't collecting interest on those vehicles. Last but not least. Did you know most sales people are paid strickly on commission? I am talking commission ONLY on the PROFIT of the vehicle. Typically they get 25% of the profit and they do not get paid on holdback. Let's think about this for a minute. You have a great sales person that is nothing but helpful. He/she spends usually at least a few hours with you. You come to terms at $100 over invoice if you make a great deal. What does he get? $25 unless they have standardized a minimum commission called a "mini". In our Toyota location the mini deal for a salesperson is $125. That means he made all of the dealers profit and $25 of the holdback money on a $100 over invoice deal. Every now and then they sell one at retail and the salesperson actually get a $300 to $1000 or more commission but this rarely happens. Now also consider the national average for a sales person is 8 cars a month. 8 mini's equals $1000 in a month. Could you live on that? Also consider on this same deal if the vehicle invoiced for $20,000 the dealer just made a whopping $575 dollars on the holdback and that is ONLY if it is an aged vehicle.
I do NOT work for Toyota, I am however employed by a 13 franchise dealer group and I have been in this business for many years. I understand the way the business works and just like every other business, we are here to make money. I also used to think the same way that a lot of you still do. I thought the dealer was tearing my guts out everytime I bought something from him. That is simply not the case anymore unless you are a total numb nuts and just pay retail.
Remember, that price is SUGGESTED retail. It isn't set in stone. Some dealers will even stoop to using "addendum" stickers that say something like "price reflects current market value". These are usually added to new release vehicles in high demand. If you want one of these vehicles, look around and you can still get a deal.
I just bought a new 05 Tundra DC and ordered it the way I wanted it. The standard deal for an employee is $100 over invoice plus $388 of dealer services fees. These extra fees aid the dealer in preperation, cleaning, accounting, etc. I gladly paid this price because I KNOW what the dealer really makes. He made $488 on a $32,000 vehicle and didn't have to pay a sales person because it is considered an in-house deal, so no salesperson was involved in the proccess.
If you are going to order your vehicle, get your best price in writing, order it and then pay the price you have in writing. Nothing easier than that. After all, you are getting exactly what you want.
Now I'll go as far as to give you a real buying tip that seems to elude most buyers. If you are going to buy a new vehicle off of the lot, especially if you have a trade-in, then wait until there are three business days left in any given month. Make your best deal, then tell the dealer you want to think about it and go home. The next day, you WILL get a call. If they really had any room left, then the price will go down. They might find a wholesale buyer for your used vehicle that will give them more for it than the first bid they received. Again, tell them you will think it over and wait until the next day. Now it is the last day of the month and I KNOW you will get that third day call. If they can't go down anymore, BELIEVE it, they CAN'T. If they could they would. The sales manager's are scrambling for anything they can get at this point and may even resort to loosing money to get their UNIT COUNT. This is very important to them as they are also get a bonus on the number of units sold in a given month. If you don't buy today, you will probably will not get it any lower no matter what UNLESS there is a rebate or incentive in the coming month. Just to let you know, the dealer does NOT know what the coming month incentives will be until 8-10AM on the 1st of the new month. Toyota will simply not release that info to the dealer until then, PERIOD.
The last thing is, do you know where most dealers really make their money? On used cars, that's where. Have you ever seen a used car invoice? I think not. The other real money maker is service. Have you ever tried to haggle the hourly labor rate? Good luck with that one.
Give the dealer some credit when you buy a new Toyota. After all he is selling you the best product out there and Toyota has less markup in the window than almost any other brand.
What's really my point? Be an informed buyer, don't trust all of these on-line buying services because there numbers are usually off to begin with and out of date. When a dealer wants to sell you a vehicle bad enough to show you the invoice, that is more than likely EXACTLY what you are looking at. His invoice he received from the regional Toyota "port" . I know our money is hard earned, in this day and age, so is the dealer's! If you looked at the invoice and you are within $500, you are getting a deal. Shake his hand and congratulate yourself for buying a very fine vehicle. I know I did.
__________________ 05 White TRD D-Cab, SR5, Limited slip, 20" TRD Enkei's with BFGoodrich G-Force TA NT, All weather guard package, factory rear privacy glass with matching front door tint, Toyota bedliner plus bed mat, Toyota/A.R.E. color keyed tonneau cover, overhead console with temp, compass and Homelink, Toyota/Gentex electrochromatic mirror, keyless, mats, TRD aluminum front skidplate, Toyota/Bazooka VSE 100 watt self-powered subwoofer, TRD stainless exhaust tip, door sill guards, Custom TRD matched pin striping with Toyota logos, painted calipers with TRD letters, TRD billet aluminum third brake light cover with true TRD letters, Pioneer AVIC D-3 GPS head unit with IP Buss controlled Pioneer XM radio tuner and iPod interface, Pac remote(maintains steering wheel controls) Polk Audio speakers DB675 two way in rear, Polk DB6750 components in front powered by a Polk C400.4 4 channel amp, seperate amped Aura Pro Bass Shakers under each front seat, Bazooka EL series 8" 100 watt self-powered subwoofer with Polk Momo driver with quick disconnect, Memphis tweeters in rear, back-up sensors (very handy), foglight mod, Sylvania Silverstars in both head and fog lights, added rear halogen back-up lighting, BellTech 6700 1" lowering shackles, Hellwig anti-sway bar, Magnaflow 14586 Stainless muffler, Wheelskins two-tone leather steering wheel cover, Ventvisors for side and rear windows, custom lower grill insert, Hoppy tailgate spring. More to come!
From your post if I understood correctly it is most beneficial for the dealer to sell you a car off the lot than to sell you a special order car. I would have thought that they would have less expenses to sell an ordered car since it would be on the lot less time. I am on the market for a Sequoia, I received the invoice for the car with the same option from two dealers but they still differ by a few hundred dollars, and one of them wants to charge $399 for doc fees.. Anyways, my question is that since the car that I will probably buy is either coming from out of state or special ordered so, would I be able to get as good a deal if than if i would buy off the lot? The day of the month that I buy the car will then probably will not matter to get the best deal..
From your post if I understood correctly it is most beneficial for the dealer to sell you a car off the lot than to sell you a special order car. I would have thought that they would have less expenses to sell an ordered car since it would be on the lot less time. I am on the market for a Sequoia, I received the invoice for the car with the same option from two dealers but they still differ by a few hundred dollars, and one of them wants to charge $399 for doc fees.. Anyways, my question is that since the car that I will probably buy is either coming from out of state or special ordered so, would I be able to get as good a deal if than if i would buy off the lot? The day of the month that I buy the car will then probably will not matter to get the best deal..
Thanks
Fernb2000
Doc fees is something I also did not mention, but I payed those too. The doc fees are usually not explained very well. They are also reffered to as doc stamps. They are taxes charged by the state on the amount of money financed. In FL it's 35 cents per $100 financed but your state could be different. That's it in a nutshell.
As far as the same vehicle costing a little different, that could be as simple as Toyota adjusted a price on something. We have actually had the same exact vehicle with the same retail (MSRP) that invoiced for a few hundred difference. They were built about a month apart and Toyota had adjusted the invoice price.
I am in no way a financial advisor for auto buying, but I do understand the basics. I know the dealers will try to make as much money as they can. That's why the're in business. I also know that they are not the big rip-off machine that most buyers still perceive them to be.
The best thing about buying a car is there are dealerships everywhere. Take the time to talk to everyone before you buy. You can tell an honest salesperson, does he look you in the eye or does he look a little shifty? Talk to the Sales Manager. Especially talk and listen to the F+I Manager. They all can explain different aspects of your purchase.
Did you all know there was a survey about what Americans hated to do most in the business world? Number one was go to the dentist. Number two was to buy a car. Don't make it painful, it certainly doesn't have to be.
__________________ 05 White TRD D-Cab, SR5, Limited slip, 20" TRD Enkei's with BFGoodrich G-Force TA NT, All weather guard package, factory rear privacy glass with matching front door tint, Toyota bedliner plus bed mat, Toyota/A.R.E. color keyed tonneau cover, overhead console with temp, compass and Homelink, Toyota/Gentex electrochromatic mirror, keyless, mats, TRD aluminum front skidplate, Toyota/Bazooka VSE 100 watt self-powered subwoofer, TRD stainless exhaust tip, door sill guards, Custom TRD matched pin striping with Toyota logos, painted calipers with TRD letters, TRD billet aluminum third brake light cover with true TRD letters, Pioneer AVIC D-3 GPS head unit with IP Buss controlled Pioneer XM radio tuner and iPod interface, Pac remote(maintains steering wheel controls) Polk Audio speakers DB675 two way in rear, Polk DB6750 components in front powered by a Polk C400.4 4 channel amp, seperate amped Aura Pro Bass Shakers under each front seat, Bazooka EL series 8" 100 watt self-powered subwoofer with Polk Momo driver with quick disconnect, Memphis tweeters in rear, back-up sensors (very handy), foglight mod, Sylvania Silverstars in both head and fog lights, added rear halogen back-up lighting, BellTech 6700 1" lowering shackles, Hellwig anti-sway bar, Magnaflow 14586 Stainless muffler, Wheelskins two-tone leather steering wheel cover, Ventvisors for side and rear windows, custom lower grill insert, Hoppy tailgate spring. More to come!
True Invoice Cost?
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