My reference to Mormon was trying to poke a little fun at Page having multiple wives to benefit from 3 seat memory positions. Done late at night and probably in poor taste. Meant to be funny and looks like I missed the mark. No offense meant...my apologies to any other Mormons out there.
On the merits of the interior of the Sequoia, I was one of the first to point out my disappointment that Toyota did not go more upscale. But the reality is you can get a fully loaded Platinum Sequoia for around $52k and likely lower prices as time passes. For a couple hundred $'s I can upgrade some of the interior with a real wood aftermarket kit and still retain all the important features of the Sequoia such as the IRS, fold flat 3rd row seats and expansive interior.
OTOH an LC is going to run $65-70k and the LX is going to run $75-80K and no amount of aftermarket money is going to get me electric fold flat 3rd row seats, IRS and more interior space on these vehicles.
That was the point of my remarks and I think that ultimately you'll have a superior vehicle starting with a Sequoia and refining it to your tastes compared to starting with the outdated platform of an LX/LC. And you'll likely keep $20K in your pocket as a bonus. Do I wish Toyota saved me the trouble by offering a better Sequoia interior to start with?...Absolutely. However if they had upgraded the Sequoia as we all wish they had, it would have wiped the LX and LC completely out of the US market in 2008.
I think it all came down to a financial approach to phase the LX and LC out over the next couple of years (US Market) instead of having the sales of those vehicles plummet at the launch of the new Sequoia.
I think i understand your remark on the 3 wife's deal LOL which indeed is very funny .Im sorry I was on a serious Note Last night which was hard to read into dam work
On Your Token about the Toyota Land Cruiser being phased out I doubt right now is going to take place after the project lauch just now. Toyota has a special place for these Niche flag ship vehicles. The Land Cruiser has a legendary past on being the Top performer on full time 4wd . I was watching a Program with Ivan steward driving a 2008 LC Up North which Noted the new features like hill climb mode and every other Feature the Sequoia doesn't have.Wile On record I have a friend with a 2004 Land cruiser I felt the ride quality was very harsh almost truck Like and nothing Like the Sequoia in term's of ride quality. Comparing these Suv's are a little different since each specializes in different categorizes and price range but each has there own merit's too.
Looking at the other's Like the Lincoln Navigator and Gm Based Yukon and Sub The seq par's well in this segment but still lacking a v8 Hybrid unlike Yukon which is the next best investment.Would I pay more on a Hybrid Yes. Currently Toyota division fleet would be the Luxury Lexus Ls600/rx400h and Toyota Highlander 3.3 v6 Hybrid is about as close when it comes to this proven design. I expect this Techlogy to make it on the Seq and Tundra very soon from my source within Toyota.
Erik
Last edited by Tundrav8yamaha; 02-27-2008 at 05:47 PM.
While your opinion about the future of the LC are no more or less accurate than my own, the facts regarding the popularity of the LC in the US do not support the view that the LC is a landmark SUV in the eyes of Americans or that the "generations of followers" results in customers actually buying the LC as you suggest
I don't think the Landcruiser name will be dropped anytime soon. Toyota was averaging 12,000 unites per year with the 80 series Landcruiser during the early/mid 90's and that was before the LK450 debuted. When the 100 series was introducted Toyota sold 28,000 100 series LC/LX per year from 1998-2000. These sales were all before Toyota introduced the Sequioa. Toyota Landcruisers have never been cheap. The 80's in the 90's was around $41 and the LX450 was close to $48k.
Since the Seqiuoa came to market the 100 series (LX/LC) hovered around 10k-13k per. year. I think the current 200 series should hit the 10,000 unit target with no problem. T
Quote:
Even if you add in the 730 LX570 units sold in Jan. the entire platform would still be the lowest selling vehicle platform in Toyota's US line up
You added the LX to the total. I think SC430 has by far the lowest US model sales per year.
Quote:
It doesn't take a business degree to suggest that the LC/LX platform will be the first to go as soon as Toyota runs into some selling headwind.
Its not just about sales volumes. The premium SUV market is very limited in the United States especially with the poor economy. The Sequioa is not in the premium market like the 200 series is.. The Landcruiser is priced in a different bracket all together compared to the Sequioa. IMO...The Seqiuoa sales will be hit harder than 200 series as the buyers of the Sequioa brand have less income then LC.
Quote:
My guess is that they will drop these platforms while at the same time offerring a significantly upscaled version of the Sequoia as a Lexus replacement for the LX570.
There is no chance that the LX will ever be built in USA under the Sequioa platform. The design is not as advance on the Sequioa as it is on the 200 series. The 200 series is a world SUV not one for specific markets like the USA sequioa..
__________________
2003 Salsa Red Pearl
Last edited by pagemaster; 02-27-2008 at 10:16 PM.
On Your Token about the Toyota Land Cruiser being phased out I doubt right now is going to take place after the project lauch just now. Toyota has a special place for these Niche flag ship vehicles.
Quote:
Comparing these Suv's are a little different since each specializes in different categorizes and price range but each has there own merit's too.
I agree that the LC has a special place and niche market. Unfortunately those interested in that niche are no longer willing to pay $70K to support this niche, particularly with the Sequoia as an alternative consider. I don't expect this brand to disappear in the next year or 2. Toyota will take the next 3-5 years to fully recover the cost of this latest refresh and than IMO they will leave this model as a ROW only model.
Toyota has many models that are succesul overseas that don't meet the needs of US consumers (Hi-Ace for example which is probably the single most popular minivan on the planet but I would guess most of you reading this forum from NA have never heard of it. Toyota Hiace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Its my view that the LC will face a similar destiny.
Quote:
"Looking at the other's Like the Lincoln Navigator and Gm Based Yukon and Sub The seq par's well in this segment but still lacking a v8 Hybrid unlike Yukon which is the next best investment.Would I pay more on a Hybrid Yes. Currently Toyota division fleet would be the Luxury Lexus Ls600/rx400h and Toyota Highlander 3.3 v6 Hybrid is about as close when it comes to this proven design. I expect this Techlogy to make it on the Seq and Tundra very soon from my source within Toyota."
I too would give careful consideration to a hybrid Sequoia. But only if it meets a few key criteria:
It must have plug-in capabilities. Anything less is an utter waste and will be outdated technology in 24 months completely depreciating the value of a hybrid Sequoia that does not have plug-in capacilities.
It must have the same or better HP/torque ratings as the 5.7 gas engine
The batteries must have a 200,000mile service life, otherwise the 1st owner of the vehicle is going to take a bath when they attempt to trade-in or sell to a 2nd buyer that won't make the purchase unless the very expensive batteries have been refreshed.
Must have the same tow ratings as current model.
Must be capable of handling severe duty in a corrosive environment such as launching a boat in salt water. Most batteries don't take kindly to salty environments.
Must be proven safe in a major collision with Li Ion batteries that can survive massive impacts. Anything less won't be worth risky life and limb over. 30 gals of highly flammable gas is bad enough. I can't imagine the risks involved with combining exploded Li Ion batteries contents with leaking fuel.
I don't think the Landcruiser name will be dropped anytime soon.
Its possible you're right however as you correctly pointed out the sales of the LC/LX were definitely more before the Sequoia existed. It remains my opinion that this will be an easy business decision if the total units sold of the LX/LC platform remain below 15K units annually in the US. It will be quite easy to upscale the Sequoia interior materials, finish and accessories to have a vehicle far superior to the 15+ yr old platform of the LC.
Quote:
You added the LX to the total. I think SC430 has by far the lowest US model sales per year.
You are correct on the SC. It sold 183 units in Jan to the LC's 460. The sales of the SC are down 40% over last year. Given that I do not believe it shares its platform with any other vehicle, I think it to is at serious risk of going away altogether. Particularly since it doesn't have a sizable ROW market as the LC does.
Quote:
The Sequioa is not in the premium market like the 200 series is.. The Landcruiser is priced in a different bracket all together compared to the Sequioa. IMO...The Seqiuoa sales will be hit harder than 200 series as the buyers of the Sequioa brand have less income then LC.
Have to disagree. We'll know who's right based on the investments that Toyota makes in the 2 platforms. They've made absolutely no new investment whatsoever in either the LC or the LX. Essentially they took the platforms that have remained relatively unchanged for 15 years...cleaned up some sheet metal...added a few electronic accessories from third party manufacturers...and installed the drivetrain (minus the IRS) from the recently development of the Sequoia and Tundra R&D effort. Oh...and I forgot...a bunch more air vents.
They're milking a model that is selling at a huge margin because its development costs were paid off years ago and because those folks buying it, because of its past image don't know any better or care that they're essentially buying an obsolete platform for an outrageous premium. Unfortunately those numbers are dwindling significantly in the US.
At a certain point the cost of additional floor space at US dealer's and having to meet US safety and emissions standards will outweigh the margin benefit of maintaining a US certified version of the LC. When that happens it simply goes away. And when it goes away, so does the LX to be replaced with an LX Sequoia which would be a far better platform than the LX. Just my opinion, but that's how I see it, regardless of how painful that might be for the half dozen loyal LC fans out there.
Quote:
There is no chance that the LX will ever be built in USA under the Sequioa platform. The design is not as advance on the Sequioa as it is on the 200 series. The 200 series is a world SUV not one for specific markets like the USA sequioa..
I happen to think that you're mistaken on this view since there are significant costs to maintain different US certified platforms in this market. When the dwindling sales of the LX require a refresh, I am quite confident it will come in the form of a freshly upgraded interior built on the growing sales of the Sequoia platform not the declining sales of a 15+ yr old LC platform. Just common sense IMO.
Toyota will take the next 3-5 years to fully recover the cost of this latest refresh
This is global product for Toyota. Toyota sell twice as many 200 series than America sells Sequioa. The cost of the 200 series to the USA is almost minimal for marketing and engineering as there is no production costs from LC in America. The only cost is that of shipping. I have not seen any USA marketing.
Quote:
Toyota has many models that are succesul overseas that don't meet the needs of US consumers (Hi-Ace for example which is probably the single most popular minivan on the planet but I would guess most of you reading this forum from NA have never heard of it
Its a big unfair using the hi ace as a comparison to the Landcruiser as the Hiace has never been sold in NA (as far as I know) whereas the Landcruiser is in it's 7th USA generation.
Quote:
It will be quite easy to upscale the Sequoia interior materials, finish and accessories to have a vehicle far superior to the 15+ yr old platform of the LC.
The only Lexus that I know of that is not made in Japan is the Rx350 which is partly made in Canada. The Sequioa is made in Indiana which is USA which does not even make a Lexus. Furthermore the 5.7 iforce used in the 200 series is actually made in Japan and not Alabama as I previously thought.
Heatwave. Toyota won't use USA souce 5.7 or 4.7 iForce engines for the 200 series. I don't they will move the Lexus to the USA production line. With that being said. I think the Lexus would benefit more than the Landcruiser if it were bigger but that would just eat into Sequioa platinum sales.
Quote:
15+ yr old platform of the LC.
The is not true. The 200 series is a completely new frame, chassis, rear axle, interior, sourced parts and technology. Toyota is on record as saying that the 200 series has the strongest frame out of all Toyota trucks and Suvs. Also, the 100 series used an off set rear axle as the 200 series using the same rear ratio and axle as the Sequioa.
Quote:
They've made absolutely no new investment whatsoever in either the LC or the LX.
Not true. Toyota introduced the new 4.5 diesel engine that make 10.4 litres/100 km combined, a new Torsen transfer case, 10 airbags, four zone climate (no other car has 4 zone as far as I know), pre crash sysyem and 5.7 iForce built in Japan.
The Toyota 200 series also sets the benchmark out of all Toyota SUVs for most air bags, hi/lo ABS, pre crash, A,B,C crumple zones compared to other SUVs.
This is global product for Toyota. Toyota sell twice as many 200 series than America sells Sequioa. The cost of the 200 series to the USA is almost minimal for marketing and engineering as there is no production costs from LC in America. The only cost is that of shipping. I have not seen any USA marketing.
Maintaining vehicle certification is actually a rather expensive effort for any mass produced vehicle available in the US. Financing costs for a vehicle's floor space are also expensive and probably more than the shipping.
Quote:
Its a big unfair using the hi ace as a comparison to the Landcruiser as the Hiace has never been sold in NA (as far as I know) whereas the Landcruiser is in it's 7th USA generation.
Actually I think its quite fair to compare the eventual status of the LC to the HiAce. The HiAce is extremely popular around the world in many different variations and is on its 7th generation. The HiAce was sold in the US during the 80's as the "Toyota Van". Toyota Van - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Today it is gone in the US or to be more accurate it was replace by the Previa. The Previa was eventually replaced by the more modern and updated Sienna based on the Camry platform. These minivan products were sold primarily in the US (some sales in Australia and Japan).
During the launch and sale of these products in the US, Toyota continued to keep selling its outdated platform that essentially met the needs of the ROW but were no longer competitive in the US market. The HiAce remains beloved and highly profitable around the world but simply doesn't meet the higher demands of American consumers and that's why it was replaced with a modern platform back in the 80's.
Sound familiar? It certainly does to me and I think this is the exact same fate the outdated LC platform will face in the US, while remaining a very popular and profitable product in the ROW.
Quote:
Not true. Toyota introduced the new 4.5 diesel engine that make 10.4 litres/100 km combined, a new Torsen transfer case, 10 airbags, four zone climate (no other car has 4 zone as far as I know), pre crash sysyem and 5.7 iForce built in Japan.
The Toyota 200 series also sets the benchmark out of all Toyota SUVs for most air bags, hi/lo ABS, pre crash, A,B,C crumple zones compared to other SUVs.
Time will tell which view is accurate. Most of the investments you referenced were part of the development expense for the new Tundra and Sequoia and merely applied to the legacy platform of the LC to keep it alive (barely) in the US for a few more years. The 4.5 diesel is not available in the US and not likely to meet particulate standards for the US in its current design. Pretty much all of the design updates you reference were by 3rd party suppliers or applications of Toyota investments from the Tundra/Sequoia design platform.
Pretty much all of the design updates you reference were by 3rd party suppliers or applications of Toyota investments from the Tundra/Sequoia design platform.
Explain this to me. The Tundra/Sequioa both share the 5.7/6speed. 6 speed is built in Japan. The 5.7 for 200 series is built in Japan while the the Tundra/Sequioa version comes from the USA. The 5.7 is a design that is modeled off the 4.6 Lexus LS model...not a USA design. As for features. The 200 series ups the the Sequioa in everything except for rear fold flat, interior space and tow capacity....but GVWR offsets that. Tell me how the 200 series was designed off the Sequioa platform. Everything 200 series one ups the Sequioa.
The 200 series and the Sequioa were design by different departments in Toyota Japan and USA....so they are not the same.
__________________
2003 Salsa Red Pearl
Last edited by pagemaster; 02-29-2008 at 11:13 PM.
I felt the ride quality was very harsh almost truck Like and nothing Like the Sequoia in term's of ride quality
While I have not driven the 100 series Landcruiser I will say that I much prefer the 200 series Landcruiser ride over the LX570 and the 100 series Lx470. The 200 series Landcruiser ride reminded me very much of my first first gen Tundra ride. For the record the I have never liked the 100 series and 200 series LX ride. I can't stand adjustable suspension. Just not my thing.
__________________
2003 Salsa Red Pearl
Last edited by pagemaster; 02-29-2008 at 11:14 PM.
Explain this to me. The Tundra/Sequioa both sare the 5.7/6speed. 6 speed is built in Japan. The 5.7 for 200 series is built in Japan while the the Tundra/Sequioa version comes from the USA. The 5.7 is a design that is modeled off the 4.6 Lexus LS model...not a USA design. As for features. The 200 series ups the the Sequioa in everything except for rear fold flat, interior space and tow capacity....but GVWR offsets that. Tell me 200 series was designed off the Sequioa platform. Everything 200 series one ups the Sequioa.
The 200 series and the Sequioa were design by different departments in Toyota Japan and USA....so they are not the same.
Does it really madder the future sake in the overall business Toyota Motor sales does? It's been interesting reading these post to some degree but overall it seems like a huge Debate and hell that's not needed during an election year (page i know your excluded in that ).
Overall I think Toyota might Ditch one in the lineup but the future of Large V8 suv's are going to die out either way you look at this let's face reality.About mention of Toyota during a re badge Sequoia as something else they could have done this with the Tundra Crew max and re badged that as a Lexus LT 570 and went against Lincoln LT but Lexus Choose not too because it would damage the Luxury resell's market value. Toyota could be Like Gm and use one platform for a lot of makes Saturn,GM,Chevy but entirely there are a few model's shared to kept cost down.
Explain this to me. The Tundra/Sequioa both share the 5.7/6speed. 6 speed is built in Japan. The 5.7 for 200 series is built in Japan while the the Tundra/Sequioa version comes from the USA. The 5.7 is a design that is modeled off the 4.6 Lexus LS model...not a USA design. As for features. The 200 series ups the the Sequioa in everything except for rear fold flat, interior space and tow capacity....but GVWR offsets that. Tell me how the 200 series was designed off the Sequioa platform. Everything 200 series one ups the Sequioa.
The 200 series and the Sequioa were design by different departments in Toyota Japan and USA....so they are not the same.
The 5.7, the new 6sp and the IRS were clearly developed for the US market as they're not overed in the LC overseas...only here in the US. I'm very confident that this new drivetrain was developed for the new Tundra/Sequoia platform and then adapted to the LC/LX platform (for the US only) since you don't develop a new drivetrain for the lower selling older platform and then adapt it to the brand new platform that has much greater sales. Simple business economics.
BTW it doesn't matter where's its manufactured, it matters for which market the designs were meant to meet customer needs. Clearly a 381hp/401 ft lbs engine is not designed for the needs of customers anywhere outside NA. I say that because no other market has the need to tow large boats, horse trailers, motorcycle trailers, campers etc OR has the income to justify an engine and drivetrain of this strength OR has gas prices at our levels (although that reason is clearly changing).
That's why the new power and drivetrain designs were designed for US customers and why in the end the Sequoia will be the platform for the US and the LC will be the platform for rest of world. Same decision Toyota made with respect to the HiAce minivan and the Sienna. The HiAce and LC are fully depreciated platforms that can be offerred at much lower prices to ROW. The new Tundra/Sequoia designs have new R&D costs to be covered and are better suited to the US marketplace. That's why the Sequoia platform will be the design on which Toyota basis future products for probably a decade. Including diesel and hydrid versions while the LC/LX designs are phased out in the US IMO.
Comes down to customer needs and the US has far different needs and income than the ROW which results in different design needs.
I think I am being swayed by Obama....but yeah...I don't get to vote
I think we would all do well to keep politics out of a Sequoia forum....particularly from folks that have absolutely no say in our US political process....such as non-US citizens. If you wish to discuss your views on Canadian politics I suggest you seek out a political forum to have a discussion about the Prime Minister of Canadian ...along with the other 6 Canadian's that might be interested in the topic.
Overall I think Toyota might Ditch one in the lineup but the future of Large V8 suv's are going to die out either way you look at this let's face reality.
I really don't think this is a likely outcome unless you think there's going to be a wholesale change in American lifestyles (for the worse IMO). So long as there are Americans that tow boats to the lake/shore, horses to weekend horse shows, snowmobiles to the mountains, motorcyles to rallies, cars and motorcycles to weekend races, jet skis to the lake/shore, campers on family vacations in the summer and trailers for moving the very mobile US population...there will always be a need for power. We are decades away from the kind of alternative power needed for these truly American hobbies. In the interim this power can only be filled with cubic inches of engine displacement, namely v-8s.
There will be some advances with supplemental electric power to v-8s however it will be quite awhile before there is a design that can handle the kinds of rigor and power in the hobbies above without a v-8. Big v-8s will be around as long as these hobbies are around even if gas prices reduce the overall number of these engines.
That may be a good thing as the future sales of these vehicles will go to people that really need this kind of power instead of those that simply want the looks of a large SUV when a minivan might have been a more suitable choice for their lifestyle. The price of gas will drive these more reasonable vehicle choices.
I really don't think this is a likely outcome unless you think there's going to be a wholesale change in American lifestyles (for the worse IMO). So long as there are Americans that tow boats to the lake/shore, horses to weekend horse shows, snowmobiles to the mountains, motorcyles to rallies, cars and motorcycles to weekend races, jet skis to the lake/shore, campers on family vacations in the summer and trailers for moving the very mobile US population...there will always be a need for power. We are decades away from the kind of alternative power needed for these truly American hobbies. In the interim this power can only be filled with cubic inches of engine displacement, namely v-8s.
There will be some advances with supplemental electric power to v-8s however it will be quite awhile before there is a design that can handle the kinds of rigor and power in the hobbies above without a v-8. Big v-8s will be around as long as these hobbies are around even if gas prices reduce the overall number of these engines.
That may be a good thing as the future sales of these vehicles will go to people that really need this kind of power instead of those that simply want the looks of a large SUV when a minivan might have been a more suitable choice for their lifestyle. The price of gas will drive these more reasonable vehicle choices.
The way i review this topic is federal Caft standards have changed for Large Suv's and Truck with v8 in the future.Ideally suited everybody must comply with these changes in the near future.I don't think Suv will fade out there still is a demand but I'm referring to prior year's like in 2002 and before when the popularity of Suv sales skyrocket. Right now the big three have cut's back the demand since this really isn't a popular seller like the past.Gas prices have a lot to do with the sales fluctuation rate on these Rig's.If i had a boat I would dock the boat at the lake since it's cheap in the long run and less wear and tear on my V8.
"There will be some advances with supplemental electric power to v-8s however it will be quite awhile before there is a design that can handle the kinds of rigor and power in the hobbies above without a v-8. Big v-8s will be around as long as these hobbies are around even if gas prices reduce the overall number of these engines. "
gmc Yukon has a Hybrid right now but the towing is less but it's still something to look forward too. The Lexus Ls600 is a v8 hybrid as well and I'm aware this technology will be making into the Toyota lineup very soon you can count on that .
Last edited by Tundrav8yamaha; 03-01-2008 at 01:31 PM.
gmc Yukon has a Hybrid right now but the towing is less but it's still something to look forward too. The Lexus Ls600 is a v8 hybrid as well and I'm aware this technology will be making into the Toyota lineup very soon you can count on that.
I hope so too. I just don't think I want to be the first one on the block towing a heavy load with a hybrid design. Particularly one where the hybrid part operates on a battery pack and electric motors that may very well be dipped into the corrosive environment of launching a boat into salt water.
Quote:
If i had a boat I would dock the boat at the lake since it's cheap in the long run and less wear and tear on my V8.
It might be cheaper however if you've owned a boat you'd know they have alot of maintenance. I'd rather being doing that maintenance at home alittle bit during the week so I can be ready to launch with no delay on the weekend. Its not very pleasant to have to lug the family to the docuk where you're boat is stored and then have them sitting around for hrs while you clean the boat or change the oil. Its alot more convenient to have the boat on a trailer at your home during the week. Of course one alternative is to just pay someone to do all the cleanup and maintenance at the dock, but that be very expensive in addition to dock and storage fees.
I'd much rather tow since I launch on lakes, rivers and the ocean and not just one location.
Re: 2008 Toyota Sequoia interior....What a shame
. Comparing these Suv's are a little different since each specializes in different categorizes and price range but each has there own merit's too.
). 
Linear Mode
