DJ's alignment specs

[rondenrus]

Will DJ's alignment spec work on a 04 dc 4x4

[DJ]

The "specs" are more a "method" than a set of numbers.

Start with the alignment settings that Toyota recommends for your vehicle. The alignment console has these in its database.

Set camber and total toe dead on the recommended settings. Set caster right at the upper end of the range the specs allow. These settings are within what Toyota allows for your vehicle, so neither they nor the alignment shop have any reason to object, and the higher caster setting will provide the maximum steering stability that Toyota's specs for your vehicle can provide.

[akauth]

DJ, what is the net effect of having the cross camber out of spec? I got a lifetime alignment policy at Firestone and thus far they've been pretty good.

Until this last time, that is. I had them do a rotate and check the alignment. When I got it back it was pulling pretty strongly to the right.

When I took it back, they had had the toe on the right at .94. So they fixed that. Not sure how they got it so far off, and it was immediate after I got it back so it wasn't like I hit something.

They matched the right and left caster at 1.5 and that seems to be fine. No, actually I think the left is 1.6, not 1.5.

But the left camber is -.04 and the right is .04. The alignment machine says that in spec cross camber is -.05 to .05 so I'm out of spec. Not sure if that alignment spec is right though.

Not sure if I should bring it back again or if I can wait 5,000 miles. If I bring it back again it's a third time. But if that is what's needed, that's what's needed.

The toe on the left is .05 and on the right is .06.



Alan

Originally Posted by DJ

The "specs" are more a "method" than a set of numbers.

Start with the alignment settings that Toyota recommends for your vehicle. The alignment console has these in its database.

Set camber and total toe dead on the recommended settings. Set caster right at the upper end of the range the specs allow. These settings are within what Toyota allows for your vehicle, so neither they nor the alignment shop have any reason to object, and the higher caster setting will provide the maximum steering stability that Toyota's specs for your vehicle can provide.

[DJ]

Originally Posted by akauth

DJ, what is the net effect of having the cross camber out of spec? I got a lifetime alignment policy at Firestone and thus far they've been pretty good.

Until this last time, that is. I had them do a rotate and check the alignment. When I got it back it was pulling pretty strongly to the right.

When I took it back, they had had the toe on the right at .94. So they fixed that. Not sure how they got it so far off, and it was immediate after I got it back so it wasn't like I hit something.

They matched the right and left caster at 1.5 and that seems to be fine. No, actually I think the left is 1.6, not 1.5.

But the left camber is -.04 and the right is .04. The alignment machine says that in spec cross camber is -.05 to .05 so I'm out of spec. Not sure if that alignment spec is right though.

Not sure if I should bring it back again or if I can wait 5,000 miles. If I bring it back again it's a third time. But if that is what's needed, that's what's needed.

The toe on the left is .05 and on the right is .06.



Alan

Cross camber being a bit high is not a serious problem. Camber itself is not what I would call critical. With steel-belted radial-ply tires, it doesn't cause pull or wear as it can with bias-ply tires.

My service manual specs cross camber as: "Right-left error: 30' (0.5 degrees) or less". You might be misreading it as being "-.05 to .05" -- that's about a factor of ten too tight.

I think your cross camber is fine. Your caster is a concern, however. It's too low for good stability, in my opinion. I would want it at least two degrees, which is right at the upper end of the range allowed on a 2000 like yours and mine.

The concerns with toe are not what one might expect. "Total toe" is a critical parameter and that's what the specs discuss. Total toe not being in spec is a VERY critical tire wear factor, so that's what you should look for on the printout.

"Left toe" and "right toe" add up to equal total toe, but their measurements vary by how much the wheels are steered left or right. That means left toe and right toe could be a bit confusing looking even though the vehicle is aligned properly, simply because the steering wheel was steered to the right or the left a bit as the printout was made.

So, your test of "are left and right toe correct" has two parts.

First, check total toe. If it's in spec, preferably very close to the recommended value, then tire wear will not be a concern.

Next, check individual toe by checking to see if the steering wheel is level when you drive in a straight line. If it is, then individual toe is correct, also.

[akauth]

Thanks, DJ. You were right on the extra zero in the cross camber. Moved the decimal point. Yeah, I guess that spec was a bit tight. Good luck on getting a tech to meet that! It's hard enough to get them to just meet the factory specs.

My cross caster of 0.1 is within range of the -0.5 and 0.5. I tried to get them to get the caster as high as they could and they could only get it up to 1.6 on the right, so he dropped it down on the left to match. Could be if I went to a better shop I might get better results. But it's always been stable enough for me. When the toe was out this time whenever I hit a bump it went off in another direction. I'm used to not needing to have my hands on the wheel when driving. I was kind of cringing at what I was doing to my tread since I figured they screwed up the toe somehow. I just didn't know how badly.

The total toe is 0.11 which is within the range of -0.12 and 0.28. So that should be pretty neutral.

In the past I've had the toe out a lot on another vehicle and it just destroys the tread in no time. Months of wear turns into weeks.

Unfortunately, the steering wheel has never been level - even from day one. I had the dealer try to fix it and their solution was a bit boneheaded. Take the wheel off and move it over. Of course, due to the splining, it moved over too much and now it's too far the other way. Since that's pretty much an appearance thing and it's out a bit, I've never really worried about it.

In the past, my alignment has been in spec and tire wear has been decent.

I am little concerned from this shop the the let me go with a totat toe of 1.89! What the heck did they do? Fortunately, I didn't drive that far on it, but for longer than I would have liked until I could get back in.

I see they measured the rear left and right too. I don't even have specs on those.

L R
Camber 0.0 -0.2 Total Cross Camber 0.2
Toe 0.07 -0.03 Total Toe 0.04

Originally Posted by DJ

Cross camber being a bit high is not a serious problem. Camber itself is not what I would call critical. With steel-belted radial-ply tires, it doesn't cause pull or wear as it can with bias-ply tires.

My service manual specs cross camber as: "Right-left error: 30' (0.5 degrees) or less". You might be misreading it as being "-.05 to .05" -- that's about a factor of ten too tight.

I think your cross camber is fine. Your caster is a concern, however. It's too low for good stability, in my opinion. I would want it at least two degrees, which is right at the upper end of the range allowed on a 2000 like yours and mine.

The concerns with toe are not what one might expect. "Total toe" is a critical parameter and that's what the specs discuss. Total toe not being in spec is a VERY critical tire wear factor, so that's what you should look for on the printout.

"Left toe" and "right toe" add up to equal total toe, but their measurements vary by how much the wheels are steered left or right. That means left toe and right toe could be a bit confusing looking even though the vehicle is aligned properly, simply because the steering wheel was steered to the right or the left a bit as the printout was made.

So, your test of "are left and right toe correct" has two parts.

First, check total toe. If it's in spec, preferably very close to the recommended value, then tire wear will not be a concern.

Next, check individual toe by checking to see if the steering wheel is level when you drive in a straight line. If it is, then individual toe is correct, also.

[TundrastruckDave]

Originally Posted by rondenrus

Will DJ's alignment spec work on a 04 dc 4x4

Well... let me put it this way (i.e. short-n-sweet)... they "did" on my DC.

Like DJ said...

Originally Posted by DJ

The "specs" are more a "method" than a set of numbers.

Start with the alignment settings that Toyota recommends for your vehicle. The alignment console has these in its database.

Set camber and total toe dead on the recommended settings. Set caster right at the upper end of the range the specs allow. These settings are within what Toyota allows for your vehicle, so neither they nor the alignment shop have any reason to object, and the higher caster setting will provide the maximum steering stability that Toyota's specs for your vehicle can provide.

That's what I did, but the real... "KEY"... is finding a tire shop's alignment tech, who knows what he's doing! And... TRUST ME... that's NOT as easy as it sounds! Once you "find" a competent alignment tech, then giving him DJ's specs, is an EXCELLENT starting point for him to work from.

Thanks for ALL the help DJ!

[Johnny Law]

After lifting my Tacoma, I had the alignment guy set everything at the factory specs, only at the high end of the recommended settings. Truck drives straight as an arrow with no pulling, awesome.

[DJ]

Originally Posted by akauth

[...]

My cross caster of 0.1 is within range of the -0.5 and 0.5. I tried to get them to get the caster as high as they could and they could only get it up to 1.6 on the right, so he dropped it down on the left to match. Could be if I went to a better shop I might get better results.

[...]

I am little concerned from this shop the the let me go with a totat toe of 1.89! What the heck did they do? Fortunately, I didn't drive that far on it, but for longer than I would have liked until I could get back in.

I see they measured the rear left and right too. I don't even have specs on those.

L R
Camber 0.0 -0.2 Total Cross Camber 0.2
Toe 0.07 -0.03 Total Toe 0.04

Cross caster of 0.1 is fine.

As I've posted before, setting both camber and caster correctly on a Tundra is a nightmare unless the right tool is used properly. The ONLY tool that works is the CAMM display on a Hunter console. It's just software, but it's the RIGHT software. Given what they did with toe, I doubt they know how to use the tool properly.

Setting toe is the final step of EVERY alignment. I'd bet, with long odds, that they simply forgot it. Somebody went off for a piss break or some such, then came back and forgot where he left off. The problem is that neither he, nor the service manager, ever looked at the results after they were printed. They would not have released it to you knowing it was in that condition, therefore they didn't look to see that it wasn't.

Setting toe such that the steering wheel is level when the vehicle rolls in a straight line is ROUTINE. Doing so requires mounting sensors on the rear wheels such that the pointing directions of the rear wheels (i.e. rear toe) can be measured. That means you get measurements of the rear alignment as a matter of course, even though they are not adjustable. A total rear toe of 0.04 is good, meaning your rear axle is fine and the alignment machine is in good calibration.

I think I'd find another shop.

[akauth]

Yeah, I'm thinking about using an alignment only place in the area. The reason that I used this place is that they rotate my tires for free since I got the tires there and it's a lifetime alignment.

But to be honest, they've screwed it up more times than if I just had the alignment checked every two years (or tire buy) vs every six months for with the onetime fee.

I guess I'm getting what I paid for after the original "liftetime" alignment buy.

You know, I didn't think that centering the wheel should be a big deal and there is a Toyota dealer up here that specifically mentions they level the wheel in an alignment. I might just hold them to it even though it's more work. What the dealer did under warrantee to fix the problem was lame. It's just it never really mattered to me.

I never got a printout from the alignment and I usually always do. If I had, I would have known how badly they screwed up the toe and I would have waited for them to fix it. I've got a couple printouts over the years so I know what is "okay" for my truck. But I never have had a cross camber even close to that high before. At least not that I can remember. So I don't know what it does.

I'd think that the alignment console would flash at them when it's off and they'd just keep fixing it until it was in spec. I guess not. I'd rather even pay a premium for the service and just be sure that when I pulled out, it was done right.

But I do have to say that they did a pretty good job of aligning the things that matter most so that the pull was eliminated entirely and it drives straight again.


Alan

Originally Posted by DJ

Cross caster of 0.1 is fine.

As I've posted before, setting both camber and caster correctly on a Tundra is a nightmare unless the right tool is used properly. The ONLY tool that works is the CAMM display on a Hunter console. It's just software, but it's the RIGHT software. Given what they did with toe, I doubt they know how to use the tool properly.

Setting toe is the final step of EVERY alignment. I'd bet, with long odds, that they simply forgot it. Somebody went off for a piss break or some such, then came back and forgot where he left off. The problem is that neither he, nor the service manager, ever looked at the results after they were printed. They would not have released it to you knowing it was in that condition, therefore they didn't look to see that it wasn't.

Setting toe such that the steering wheel is level when the vehicle rolls in a straight line is ROUTINE. Doing so requires mounting sensors on the rear wheels such that the pointing directions of the rear wheels (i.e. rear toe) can be measured. That means you get measurements of the rear alignment as a matter of course, even though they are not adjustable. A total rear toe of 0.04 is good, meaning your rear axle is fine and the alignment machine is in good calibration.

I think I'd find another shop.

[PHARMKOOK]

DJ,
i am tempted to drive up to OK- hand my tundra over to you just to get the truck to drive straight.... Been to multiple dealers/alignment shops (always armed with your numbers....)
Changed out original tires, rotated the new ones multiple times...

DANG TRUCK STILL PULLS TO THE LEFT BAD....
what else could be causing this issue

Of course, the dealer keeps pointing to a bad tire, but when tire rotated to opposite side - shouldnt it pull to right ??? it doesnt...

i havent noticed really bad wearing patterns on the tires either...

help
kevin

[tempetom]

It probably isn't this, but sometimes a brake sticking a little can cause a pull to the side.

[PHARMKOOK]

i am so tired of this mess... its got me looking for new truck... LOL

[PHARMKOOK]

I should include this...
2000 Tundra ... 60,000 miles
i am original owner...

[DJ]

Originally Posted by PHARMKOOK

DJ,
i am tempted to drive up to OK- hand my tundra over to you just to get the truck to drive straight.... Been to multiple dealers/alignment shops (always armed with your numbers....)
Changed out original tires, rotated the new ones multiple times...

DANG TRUCK STILL PULLS TO THE LEFT BAD....
what else could be causing this issue

Of course, the dealer keeps pointing to a bad tire, but when tire rotated to opposite side - shouldnt it pull to right ??? it doesnt...

i havent noticed really bad wearing patterns on the tires either...

help
kevin

The drive would cost you a couple of days, a couple of tanks of gas, and would put more miles on your tires, but not much else. I'm not in the alignment business and I don't have an aligment machine. There are times I wish I did, but that's life.

If you have your most recent alignment printout, please post the numbers. Maybe we can find the problem.

[PHARMKOOK]

I will try to dig up the specs ...
thanks