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Suspension & AxleTechnical discussions regarding alignment, stock and modified suspensions, lift kits, axles, hub conversions, gearing and steering.
This is a discussion thread titled "DJ [follow up on alignment]?", within the Suspension & Axle forum, part of the Technical & Vehicle Assistance Forums category.
I found a shop in town who just recently installed brand new Hunter alignment machine. They aligned the truck got the total toe to .08 L/camber at -0.1 R/camber @ -0.5 L/caster @ 1.2 and R/caster @1.0. The tech said that the caster adjustment is maxed and that the more he tried to raise the camber numbers the lower the caster numbers would go. The truck definately feels and drives better now, but my question now is if you and I have the same exact truck 00 Tundra why can't the caster adjustment be adjusted to your specs that you have. Is it the 2.5" coilovers or is something out of whack or is the tech out of touch. He seems like a nice knowledgable guy and willing to work with me on this. He mentioned something about an aftermarket part that would allow him to bring up the camber numbers in tur increasing the caster numbers. I was at the shop during the last part of the alignment he had the caster numbers up at 1.5 or 1.6 but then the camber numbers went further -0.6 to-0.9. What do you think it hasnt been aligned to the current specs long enough to tell if the tires stopped cupping or not yet. It sure drives nicer less shimmy in steering wheel etc....
Any input is appreciated.
Thanks F.T.F.
The tech said that the caster adjustment is maxed and that the more he tried to raise the camber numbers the lower the caster numbers would go.
The tech simply doesn't know what he doesn't know. The problem is that he needs training in two things:
1) how camber and caster are adjusted on a Tundra; and
2) how to make those adjustments using Hunter alignment equipment.
He needs to call his local Hunter T & T (Technical and Training) Rep and arrange for such training. He will not get your problem solved until he gets that training.
Camber is the lean of the wheel to the side. Camber is positive when the wheel leans outward and negative when it leans inward. One can also consider camber to be the angle between the axis of rotation of the wheel and the horizontal.
Caster is the lean of the steering axis of the wheel to the rear. Caster is positive when the steering axis leans rearward and negative when it leans forward. The steering axis is the imaginary axis about which the wheel steers left or right. In the case of the Tundra, it is the imaginary line, nearly vertical, between the centers of the two ball joints.
Next, consider how camber and caster are adjustable on the Tundra.
Consider the suspension on the Tundra for the left front wheel. There is an upper control arm and a lower control arm. These are roughly triangularly shaped, with one point of the triangle outboard and two points inboard. The ball joints are located at the outboard points of the control arms, one to each arm. The arms are made to pivot up and down at their inboard points by mounting them to the frame with bushings.
Camber and caster are adjusted by moving the pivots of the lower control arm, which moves the ball joint at the other end of the arm. There are two adjustment cams for this, one at each bushing.
Now, let's consider just what happens when we turn those adjustment cams.
If we rotate an adjustment cam, it moves the corresponding bushing inward or outward. This makes the lower control arm rotate about the position of the other bushing. That makes the outer end of the control arm, where the ball joint is, move along an arc.
Suppose we rotate the forward adjustment cam to move the forward bushing inward. This makes the lower ball joint move forward, which makes caster more positive, and inward, which makes camber more positive.
Suppose we rotate the forward adjustment cam to move the forward bushing outward. This makes the lower ball joint move rearward, which makes caster more negative, and outward, which makes camber more negative.
Suppose we rotate the rearward adjustment cam to move the rearward bushing inward. This makes the lower ball joint move rearward, which makes caster more negative, and inward, which makes camber more positive.
Suppose we rotate the rearward adjustment cam to move the rearward bushing outward. This makes the lower ball joint move forward, which makes caster more positive, and outward, which makes camber more negative.
Now, what is the key observation to make here? Moving either adjustment cam changes both caster and camber.
Go back to your statement, which I quoted above, about the Tech's problem: He believes that one cam adjusts camber and the other cam adjusts caster. This is a misconception that one commonly finds. It's dead wrong in the case of the Tundra.
The truth is that, in the case of the Tundra, both cams adjust camber and both cams adjust caster.
He will never get it adjusted right until he understands that. He doesn't know what he doesn't know.
Unfortunately, it sounds like a cast iron bitch to get it adjusted right, doesn't it? It is a cast iron bitch unless he uses the Hunter alignment console properly. Its software has a feature known as CAMM (Control Arm Movement Monitor), which is there for just this kind of adjustment. It works, magnificently so.
When this software feature is used, the alignment console knows the geometry of the control arm of the Tundra. It computes how much change must be made to camber and how much change must be made to caster. It then shows the Tech how much change to make to one adjustment cam and gives him a "bar graph" to watch as he makes that adjustment. Then he tells the console that he's switching to the other cam, and the software re-evaluates the situation, again computing how much change must be made to camber and how much change must be made to caster. It then shows the Tech how much change to make to the other adjustment cam and gives him a "bar graph" to watch as he makes that adjustment.
Usually, he can adjust each cam one time and nail it. Been there, done that, many times. At worst, he can adjust them again and tweak the adjustments slightly.
The problem is pretty clear now, isn't it? The Tech must learn how the adjustment cams of the Tundra work, that each cam changes both camber and caster, and he must learn how to use the features, particularly CAMM, of his new aligner.
It's unfortunately a common problem. The tech doesn't know how to fully use the tool (the Hunter system) that he has to make his life easier.
Just because they have the machine doesn't mean they know how to use it. I've gotten the same story from other tech's "It just doesn't go that far..." after a few hours of tinkering. This was at a place that swore to me up and down that they could hit the specs "No problem."
After about an hour of watching this guy futz around, I casually mentioned that the machine he was using has an option to show him which cams to adjust and how far...that went over like a lead balloon.
I finally found one tech who knew what he was doing, and within 30 mins had the alignment set where I wanted it (i.e. DJ's specs).
Maybe we can convince DJ to list which menu to go to to show the adjustment screens to these "techs", or better yet, if we had a printout/flowchart that we could use to get them to the right menus... (I'm mostly kidding)
__________________
Genthar
Rhino Lining, Waag one piece grille guard and wheel to wheel nerf bars, 3M Xpel on headlights, front corner lights, and foglights, Valentine One radar detector, XM Satellite radio, Navigon 7100 GPS, Lightforce 240 Blitz aux lights, Aux. reverse lights.
AEM Brute force intake, courtesy of AEM Power and TundraSolutions.com
Teamwest Coilovers, Camburg Upper A arms, Daystar Steering Rack Bushings, Total Chaos Diff Drop spacer, JBA Headers, Y-Pipe, and EVOL exhaust.
It's unfortunately a common problem. The tech doesn't know how to fully use the tool (the Hunter system) that he has to make his life easier.
Just because they have the machine doesn't mean they know how to use it. I've gotten the same story from other tech's "It just doesn't go that far..." after a few hours of tinkering. This was at a place that swore to me up and down that they could hit the specs "No problem."
After about an hour of watching this guy futz around, I casually mentioned that the machine he was using has an option to show him which cams to adjust and how far...that went over like a lead balloon.
I finally found one tech who knew what he was doing, and within 30 mins had the alignment set where I wanted it (i.e. DJ's specs).
Maybe we can convince DJ to list which menu to go to to show the adjustment screens to these "techs", or better yet, if we had a printout/flowchart that we could use to get them to the right menus... (I'm mostly kidding)
It's actually simpler than that.
With the Hunter 211, 411, 611, or 811 consoles (which are PC-based), the "program flow" takes the user right to the CAMM screen at the appropriate point in the adjustment process. So, why doesn't the Tech use it? Because many never get to that point. After mounting the sensors and compensating for runout, the console shows a screen with all the alignment angles on it. Many Techs simply never go beyond that screen, making all their adjustments right there.
With the Hunter 311 or 511 consoles (which are not PC-based), there is no "program flow" per se. As with the others, after mounting the sensors and compensating for runout, the console shows a screen with all the alignment angles on it. If the vehicle whose specs are recalled is a Tundra, one of the "soft keys" at the bottom of this screen is labeled "Adjust Front With Cams". Pressing that soft key brings up the CAMM screen. But, as with the expensive consoles, many Techs simply never go beyond the alignment display screen, making all their adjustments right there.
You can sell a Tech a tool, but you can't make him use it right. Some just won't do it.
I'm thinking about printing out this thread and mailing it to the local yota dealership and several alignment places.
My first Tundra (2000) had the braking downhill shimmies and a constant pull to the left. New tires......no change. Rims swapped with same results. Three alignments, one of which at Toyota (made it worse) I lucked up and found a tech with a Hunter that said "you give me the numbers and I'll nail em, or no charge. I did, and he did, problems solved. After two years, life was good that day on the way home.
We have a saying in EMS. "We prefer that you be at least 10% smarter than the piece of equipment you're trying to operate."
Doesn't always happen, though.
DJ, I love the way you explain complicated subjects. Makes me feel intelligent.....cause I almost understand.
With the Hunter 211, 411, 611, or 811 consoles (which are PC-based), the "program flow" takes the user right to the CAMM screen at the appropriate point in the adjustment process. So, why doesn't the Tech use it? Because many never get to that point. After mounting the sensors and compensating for runout, the console shows a screen with all the alignment angles on it. Many Techs simply never go beyond that screen, making all their adjustments right there.
With the Hunter 311 or 511 consoles (which are not PC-based), there is no "program flow" per se. As with the others, after mounting the sensors and compensating for runout, the console shows a screen with all the alignment angles on it. If the vehicle whose specs are recalled is a Tundra, one of the "soft keys" at the bottom of this screen is labeled "Adjust Front With Cams". Pressing that soft key brings up the CAMM screen. But, as with the expensive consoles, many Techs simply never go beyond the alignment display screen, making all their adjustments right there.
You can sell a Tech a tool, but you can't make him use it right. Some just won't do it.
Oh good god! This describes EXACTLY what I usually see the techs do. Pop on the sensors, do the calibration/setup routine, get to the screen with the numbers, and out come the wrenches...
I'm definitely gonna print this sucker out and hand it to the next tech I see futzing around with my alignment...
Once again DJ, you rock!
__________________
Genthar
Rhino Lining, Waag one piece grille guard and wheel to wheel nerf bars, 3M Xpel on headlights, front corner lights, and foglights, Valentine One radar detector, XM Satellite radio, Navigon 7100 GPS, Lightforce 240 Blitz aux lights, Aux. reverse lights.
AEM Brute force intake, courtesy of AEM Power and TundraSolutions.com
Teamwest Coilovers, Camburg Upper A arms, Daystar Steering Rack Bushings, Total Chaos Diff Drop spacer, JBA Headers, Y-Pipe, and EVOL exhaust.
DJ Thanks yes it does sound like a cast iron bitch . I think this guy Phil will be pleased to read this thread. He really wants to make this thing right, and they have only had the machine 3-4 weeks I plan to print this and have him read it. Knowledge is power and the more you learn the more you know. Thanks for all your help so far I will post my next alignment specs after the tech reads this.
THANKS F.T.F.
I found a shop in town who just recently installed brand new Hunter alignment machine. They aligned the truck got the total toe to .08 L/camber at -0.1 R/camber @ -0.5 L/caster @ 1.2 and R/caster @1.0. The tech said that the caster adjustment is maxed and that the more he tried to raise the camber numbers the lower the caster numbers would go. The truck definately feels and drives better now, but my question now is if you and I have the same exact truck 00 Tundra why can't the caster adjustment be adjusted to your specs that you have. Is it the 2.5" coilovers or is something out of whack or is the tech out of touch. He seems like a nice knowledgable guy and willing to work with me on this. He mentioned something about an aftermarket part that would allow him to bring up the camber numbers in tur increasing the caster numbers. I was at the shop during the last part of the alignment he had the caster numbers up at 1.5 or 1.6 but then the camber numbers went further -0.6 to-0.9. What do you think it hasnt been aligned to the current specs long enough to tell if the tires stopped cupping or not yet. It sure drives nicer less shimmy in steering wheel etc....
Any input is appreciated.
Thanks F.T.F.
I happened to link back to this thread from another, and noticed the short line in there (bolded by me) about the coilovers. When the suspension drops (or you lift it using the coilover assembly), camber and caster both decrease, and there's only so much adjustment available. Your tech isn't nuts, if you had a stock truck he'd easily be able to get it right. In my experience with lifts and alignments, it's difficult to hit the numbers if you're over 2" up in front. Personally I've always been more willing to sacrifice camber in favor of high caster, but the best solution is only lift as high as you need to if you're using the suspension to do it, and understand the hit to camber and caster makes the vehicle harder to align as the lift height increases. I think, at about 3" or so and Total Chaos uniball uppers, caster is about 1.5-1.7 (I forget), with the camber settings DJ recommends.
With the Hunter 211, 411, 611, or 811 consoles (which are PC-based), the "program flow" takes the user right to the CAMM screen at the appropriate point in the adjustment process. So, why doesn't the Tech use it? Because many never get to that point. After mounting the sensors and compensating for runout, the console shows a screen with all the alignment angles on it. Many Techs simply never go beyond that screen, making all their adjustments right there.
With the Hunter 311 or 511 consoles (which are not PC-based), there is no "program flow" per se. As with the others, after mounting the sensors and compensating for runout, the console shows a screen with all the alignment angles on it. If the vehicle whose specs are recalled is a Tundra, one of the "soft keys" at the bottom of this screen is labeled "Adjust Front With Cams". Pressing that soft key brings up the CAMM screen. But, as with the expensive consoles, many Techs simply never go beyond the alignment display screen, making all their adjustments right there.
You can sell a Tech a tool, but you can't make him use it right. Some just won't do it.
Hey DJ,
Im going to set an appt with my local Toy dealer to get this ball joint situation taken care of. Are the specs you provide for aligment pretty much standard for all Tundras? 2006 DC, stock wheels 17" and tires. After the ball joints are replaced I want my dealer to check alignment and provide a printout of the specs.
Hey DJ,
Im going to set an appt with my local Toy dealer to get this ball joint situation taken care of. Are the specs you provide for aligment pretty much standard for all Tundras? 2006 DC, stock wheels 17" and tires. After the ball joints are replaced I want my dealer to check alignment and provide a printout of the specs.
Thanks in advance
06TundraofGold
The numbers are not the same for all but the method of getting the proper numbers is the same for all first generation Tundras.
Begin with the alignment specs that Toyota recommends for your vehicle. The alignment machine will have these specs in its internal database. Set camber and total toe dead on the recommended settings. Set caster right at the upper end of the range those specs for your vehicle allows. This provides the maximum steering stability that Toyota's specs for your vehicle allows, and, because these settings are within the tolerances Toyota allows for your vehicle, neither Toyota nor the alignment shop has any reason to object to them.
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DJ [follow up on alignment]?
Makes me feel intelligent.....cause I almost understand. 
This describes EXACTLY what I usually see the techs do. Pop on the sensors, do the calibration/setup routine, get to the screen with the numbers, and out come the wrenches...
Linear Mode
