wheel balancing woes...is this a solution?

[Erik the Red]

Oh geez, I am so tired of trying to get Les Schwab to accurately balance my wheels. I have a typical setup: 16" Toyota alloy wheels and Les Schwab Open Country LT265/76R/16 tires, all in great shape. No big deal. Well, everytime I have the tires rotated it takes me another 3-4 visits to get the shop to accurately balance the wheels. I've tried four different Schwab dealerships (according to Hunter, Les Schwab uses the 9700 balancer). And yet, I continue to experience vibration from the front and rear. I go back and they add a little more weight, do this and that, but still no smooth ride. I know there isn't a problem with the wheels or tires because the truck rode smoother BEFORE I had the wheels rebalanced this last time. Anyway...

Has anyone used Dyna Beads or the Centramatic plates? Supposedly, these things will automatically correct wheel imbalances. I did a search and only found references to these items but no opinions. Would a Toyota dealer do a better job than a tire shop?

Thanks,
Erik

[Joon]

I've had similar experience in the past. I never had any vibration problem until I took it to numerous tire shops to have my wheels balanced after getting new tires. Regardless of whatever balancing machines they were using, it still vibrated. Some worse than others. Finally took it to a dealer and now it rides so much better. I don't know if this may be the case for you, but I took it to the dealer as a last option when I wasn't satisfied with the results from many local tire shops.

good luck!

[cupidstoy]

make sure they are using the hunter road force balancing machine where ever you take it. if they know how to use it right, they should be able to get you balanced, or tell you if you have an out of round tire or rim. do a search for hunter road force and you'll find some really good writeups and info.

[Erik the Red]

I went to the Hunter website and it said that Les Schwab uses Hunter equipment--the 9700, so I have to think that either the guys are using worn centering cones (which at least one guy dismissed) or they simply don't want to spend the time on post-sale balancing. I don't know if the 9700 is the road force balancing machine.

I called one of my local Toyota dealers who said they will balance the wheels for around $60.00. My brother is a BMW nut and he swears that BMW dealers are the only ones who can make those cars run glassy smooth at high speeds. I suppose I'll take my truck to the Toy dealer but it sure fries my bacon to think that I'll have to pay for something that was promised to be done for free.

Erik

[sak]

I have done several Tundra and Seq's wheels at work.

You don't need special machines to get it done right. Its user error. If they are adding weight or taking off weight, then that is their problem. They do not know how to use the system properly.

A properly weight wheel should only have one weight on each side of the wheel. One on the inside and one on the outside. Should one side need more than 3 ounces (ie 3.5 ounces) on one side, then you can use two smaller weights to equal it. But you must use the two weights as if they were one combined weight. So it must be right next to each other.


For illustrative purposes, look at this wheel:


This wheel is improperly balanced because upon confirming the balanced wheel the second time, they added more weight to try to zero it out. But what the compter was telling them was to take off the excess weight at a certian point, not add.

[DJ]

There are some situations where putting two weights on, instead of one weight, is correct. Hunter balancers have two patented and trademarked features which do this: 1) Split Weight; and, 2) Split Spoke.

Split Weight places two smaller weights instead of one larger weight, wherein each weight is the same size and the vector sum of the two weights produces the same result as using one larger weight. There are three reasons for doing this: 1) the two weights add up to precisely the weight that is needed, whereas using a single weight is a compromise, in that the weights are made in 1/4 ounce increments; 2) two smaller weights are held more tightly than one larger weight, and so are less likely to come off if not properly installed; and, 3) sometimes the larger weight is unavailable (i.e. the box is empty) but the smaller weights are, as there are usually several choices of smaller weights.

Split Spoke places two smaller weights instead of one larger weight, but it places tape-on weights behind two spokes where they can't be seen from the outside. The two weights are not necessarily the same amount, but their vector sum produces the same result as using one larger weight. For those who spend gazillabucks on flashy wheels, hiding the weights is sometimes a big deal.

So, when using both methods together, one could use Split Weight to put two clip-on weights on the inner rim lip and two tape-on weights behind two spokes on the inner surface of the rim.

[Erik the Red]

Thanks to this board, I think I know more about wheel balancing than the guys who do it!

I took my Tundra to a local Toyota dealer and explained my problem, and they balanced all four wheels. Although the technician found three wheels out of balance, the truck continues to vibrate (though not as bad as before) at 58mph and up. There is still bit of a steering wheel twitch as well as vibration from the rear wheels, but the vibrations don't become apparent until the tires warm up--say, 10-15 miles of highway driving. The inner and outer weights on all my wheels correspond to one another, but one of the rear tires has a split weight arrangement with maybe a 3/4 inch separation. Interestingly, the weights are not equal--one is rather large and the other is quite small.

I've now had Les Schwab balance them three times, Costco once, and now the Toyota dealer. Schwab and the dealer both use the Hunter 9700. No one detected a bent wheel or separated tread or sidewall defect, so I have to assume at this point that I have a set of Toyo 6plys that are just getting lumpy with age. The only other explanation I can think of is that the alignment (which was done during the first rebalancing) is somehow responsible, but I don't see how an alignment could cause wheels to vibrate. I'm not particularly pleased with the alignment--the truck wants to wander in both directions. Funny thing here: I asked Les Schwab to align it according to DJ's specs and the guy resisted until I explained that the values were within Toyota's ranges. Although I received a printout that reflected DJ's specs, I have to wonder if the technician didn't type in the numbers to satisfy me. I've had the alignment done to those specs before and it tracked really well.

Erik

[gquenstedt]

I think that just because they have the Hunter 9700 machine doesn't mean that they are using all of the features that the machine offers. I have seen them use it at my Toyota dealer, and they just run the tire on there and the roller comes down to check the tire's roundness, but they never make any adjustment to the tire/wheel to correct the vibration.

I got my tires at Discount Tire, and they have the 9700 machine, but you have to pay extra if you want them to use that one, otherwise they just use a regular balancer.

[DJ]

Originally Posted by Erik the Red

Thanks to this board, I think I know more about wheel balancing than the guys who do it!

I took my Tundra to a local Toyota dealer and explained my problem, and they balanced all four wheels. Although the technician found three wheels out of balance, the truck continues to vibrate (though not as bad as before) at 58mph and up. There is still bit of a steering wheel twitch as well as vibration from the rear wheels, but the vibrations don't become apparent until the tires warm up--say, 10-15 miles of highway driving. The inner and outer weights on all my wheels correspond to one another, but one of the rear tires has a split weight arrangement with maybe a 3/4 inch separation. Interestingly, the weights are not equal--one is rather large and the other is quite small.

I've now had Les Schwab balance them three times, Costco once, and now the Toyota dealer. Schwab and the dealer both use the Hunter 9700. No one detected a bent wheel or separated tread or sidewall defect, so I have to assume at this point that I have a set of Toyo 6plys that are just getting lumpy with age. The only other explanation I can think of is that the alignment (which was done during the first rebalancing) is somehow responsible, but I don't see how an alignment could cause wheels to vibrate. I'm not particularly pleased with the alignment--the truck wants to wander in both directions. Funny thing here: I asked Les Schwab to align it according to DJ's specs and the guy resisted until I explained that the values were within Toyota's ranges. Although I received a printout that reflected DJ's specs, I have to wonder if the technician didn't type in the numbers to satisfy me. I've had the alignment done to those specs before and it tracked really well.

Erik

An alignment with insufficient caster can cause steering system instability, which causes the wheels to oscillate. You'll feel that as vibration, especially in the steering wheel. You can read about how this works at DJ's Alignment Setting Recommendations

Given that you feel vibrations in the steering wheel, that the vibrations happen only at higher speeds, and that the vibrations begin above a certain speed after the tires warm up, I strongly suspect that your truck has insufficient caster. As the tires warm up, their rolling resistances change, as does the squirming of the tread when it hits the pavement. This changes the forces which the tires exert on the suspension components, and so can change something that is marginally stable to something that is unstable.

And now for something slightly different. The GSP9700 generally models the loaded runout of the wheel and tire as "first order", meaning as circles whose centers are not coincident with the center of rotation. It can also measure the "second order runout", which models them as ovals, the "third order runout", which models them as triangles, the "fourth order runout", which models them as squares, and so on. The point is that the GSP9700 can detect if the tire is "lumpy". Such is not usually measured and reported to the customer, but the GSP9700 has such abilities for use in diagnostics. Methinks your tires are prime candidates for it.

And, finally, with Hunter aligners, the technician cannot simply type in the "measured values". The printout can show only actual measured values as measured values. He can, however, type in the specs to which he tries to adjust the values, so the machine can help him make those adjustments.

[DJ]

Originally Posted by gquenstedt

I think that just because they have the Hunter 9700 machine doesn't mean that they are using all of the features that the machine offers. I have seen them use it at my Toyota dealer, and they just run the tire on there and the roller comes down to check the tire's roundness, but they never make any adjustment to the tire/wheel to correct the vibration.

I got my tires at Discount Tire, and they have the 9700 machine, but you have to pay extra if you want them to use that one, otherwise they just use a regular balancer.

The whole point of the GSP9700 is not just that the loaded runout of the wheel/tire assembly can be checked, rather it is that the loaded runout of the tire can be measured, as can the runout of the wheel, and the tire can be mated to the wheel so as to minimize the loaded runout of the whole assembly.

To do this, the GS9700 directs the user to measure the loaded tire runout and then the wheel runout, after which he makes "match marks" (i.e. tape or chalk) on both the wheel and the tire. Then he moves the assembly to a tire machine, breaks the beads loose, rotates the tire on the wheel to align the marks on each, and re-inflates the tire. Finally, the assembly is moved back to the GSP9700 where the final loaded runout is measured and the assembly is balanced in the usual manner.

If you pay for a "road force balance" and this procedure is not done, then you are NOT getting what you paid for, and you are getting NO benefit from it.

[gquenstedt]

Originally Posted by DJ

If you pay for a "road force balance" and this procedure is not done, then you are NOT getting what you paid for, and you are getting NO benefit from it.

Thats what im saying. Just because they have the machine, doesn't mean that they are using it to its full capability. At my toyota dealer, they have the machine, but they only charge $44.95 for a balance, so I don't think that is enough to actually get the "road force balance", and they don't call it a road force balance.

[sak]

Originally Posted by DJ

There are some situations where putting two weights on, instead of one weight, is correct. Hunter balancers have two patented and trademarked features which do this: 1) Split Weight; and, 2) Split Spoke.

Split Weight places two smaller weights instead of one larger weight, wherein each weight is the same size and the vector sum of the two weights produces the same result as using one larger weight. There are three reasons for doing this: 1) the two weights add up to precisely the weight that is needed, whereas using a single weight is a compromise, in that the weights are made in 1/4 ounce increments; 2) two smaller weights are held more tightly than one larger weight, and so are less likely to come off if not properly installed; and, 3) sometimes the larger weight is unavailable (i.e. the box is empty) but the smaller weights are, as there are usually several choices of smaller weights.

Split Spoke places two smaller weights instead of one larger weight, but it places tape-on weights behind two spokes where they can't be seen from the outside. The two weights are not necessarily the same amount, but their vector sum produces the same result as using one larger weight. For those who spend gazillabucks on flashy wheels, hiding the weights is sometimes a big deal.

So, when using both methods together, one could use Split Weight to put two clip-on weights on the inner rim lip and two tape-on weights behind two spokes on the inner surface of the rim.

Thank you for the technical terms. I too was reffering to the split weight in my example above when using a weight above 3 onces. So for a 4 once weight (which is not be uncommon on a pickup truck) you can use two 2 onces next to each other representing one 4 once weight.

I did not know about the split spoke however. And I usually will not care much about the stick on weights showing on the inside of the wheel. To a point, brake dust will make it look like there is nothing there. LOL!

Yet a cool concept I did not know of. Also probably because our machines that we use don't have that feature.

[DJ]

Originally Posted by sak

Thank you for the technical terms. I too was reffering to the split weight in my example above when using a weight above 3 onces. So for a 4 once weight (which is not be uncommon on a pickup truck) you can use two 2 onces next to each other representing one 4 once weight.

I did not know about the split spoke however. And I usually will not care much about the stick on weights showing on the inside of the wheel. To a point, brake dust will make it look like there is nothing there. LOL!

Yet a cool concept I did not know of. Also probably because our machines that we use don't have that feature.

That's pretty close to true, but not quite. A long, curved weight does not have its center of mass right at the clip where it mounts, but a short, straight weight does. That means that a long, curved weight is not as efficient at countering an imbalance as is a short, straight weight. Now go to extremes to see the effect: consider a really long, curved weight, one that fits about 180 degrees of the wheel rim, in which case the center of mass of the weight is way inside the rim radius, right?

The Hunter balancers actually take into account the curvature and lengths of the weights. The balancer knows how much mass is required, and it knows the geometry of the weights, so it calls for the proper weight size that has the desired effect. It works quite nicely.

But, what it means is that two 2 ounce weights, side by side, are not quite as effective as one four ounce weight. The reason is that the mass of the two weights is spread over a bit longer arc than is the mass of the single weight.

You might want to see Hunter's literature about this. You can find it at Hunter Engineering Wheel Balancer Family Look about half way down the page on the right.

[sak]

Optimally you'd want to use a less weight as possible, so a 4onze weight would be the one to use. Only thing is 3 once is usually the max available.

Its nice that the Hunter allows different methods to achieve best balancing. I do agree that with a large weight that would take up 180 degrees of the wheel is in appropriate.

Too bad we just use a generic Accuturn device at work unlike the Hunter's.

[KLS]

Also consider that the shop might be using weights with the wrong bend in the clip, and some of the weights are being thrown off.

Or, the tire might be slipping around the rim.

Both are reaches, but at this point consider anything.

Try Les Schwab again. First, ask if they actually do have the GSP9700 Road Force balancing machine. Not all the shops have one. Talk to the shop manager and tell him your problems. Ask him who is his best guy for a full road-force balancing and when this guy is working. Get him to agree to assign that guy to your job. When you bring the truck in, watch the tire guy after you watch the Hunter web site Hunter GSP9700 Wheel Vibration Control System

Insist on the full Road Force balancing, reject any tires that aren't round and that don't balance smoothly, and tell them that if you don't get a good job, you want your money back on the tires as soon as you buy other tires elsewhere.


Ken