Recent alignment on tundra ...is this right?

[pearldrums287]

2002 toyota tundra sr5 - 2 wheel drive - trd offroad package w/lsd- no lift

hey guys..I had my alignment done today. Long story short: I took my truck offroad, hit a really hard hole, went a couple feet airborne. This resulted in the steering wheel needing to be turned slightly to the right in order to drive straight. No pulling though. I had my suspension checked out and the only thing the tech noticed was that my rack and pinion (i think it was the steering gear) bushing was loose. As the steering wheel was rocked back and forth, the bar underneath would shift from side to side. he said it wasn't a big deal and it tended to be common on tundras and tacomas.

Anyways about my alignment today...this is what the shop told me my truck was at:

-0.3 -0.3 ----- -0.3 -0.2
0.04 -0.25 ----- 0.05 0.37

and afterwards was

0.0 -0.1
0.09 0.12

and thats all the sheet said.

I now notice that the steering wheel has to be very slightly turned to the left to drive straight (even on flat roads...even though the tech guy claimed he couldnt notice it, i had my friend drive my truck and he noticed it) and when my wheels are turned all the way to the left, my left tire rubs against my mud flap.

I've now educated myself a bit about alignment by reading dj's recommendations and am thinking about getting it looked at again.

dj's recommendations:
camber +.25
caster +2.00
total toe +.08

Does that seem that I should get this looked at again or am I just being way too picky and my alignment is probably fine?

Thanks for the help guys...I've learned so much from this site.

[DJ]

It would help greatly if you would put some labels on those numbers so we would know just what they mean.

If your steering wheel was level when the vehicle rolls in a straight line, but it now no longer is level, then your alignment has changed. Most importantly, getting the steering wheel level is part of the final steps of adjusting the alignment, namely adjusting toe. An incorrect total toe is a cause of extreme tire wear.

So, it is self-evident from your words that your truck needs alignment, but we can't tell from your numbers what the current alignment is.

[pearldrums287]

it would be nice if the place put labels on the sheet. That is all the sheet had on it. Anyways..I went to a different place (same chain) and they said that the first place should have put labels on the sheet and that they would take a better look at the truck. They said that with the alignment package I have, only standard alignment..basically toe..is included. To adjust the camber or caster, they would need a bolt kit. They said that they would go ahead and check the levels of the camber and caster and let me know what it was. Thanks.

[DJ]

Originally Posted by pearldrums287

it would be nice if the place put labels on the sheet. That is all the sheet had on it. Anyways..I went to a different place (same chain) and they said that the first place should have put labels on the sheet and that they would take a better look at the truck. They said that with the alignment package I have, only standard alignment..basically toe..is included. To adjust the camber or caster, they would need a bolt kit. They said that they would go ahead and check the levels of the camber and caster and let me know what it was. Thanks.

You're being sold a bridge, or some fine swamp land, and in more ways than one.

Camber and caster are adjustable on a Tundra as it comes from the factory. No "kits", bolt or otherwise, are required. Been there, done that, many times.

I suggest reading DJ [follow up on alignment]? for an in depth explanation.

It is apparent that the shop is not using a Hunter aligner, as Hunter aligners print very complete listings of alignment data including labels for all values.

I suggest you find another shop. I would NEVER take my vehicle there.

[pearldrums287]

yea after talking to toyota...i went back to the shop that my truck was at (a different store than the original, but still the same chain) and told them that i dont need a bolt kit. They said that they would put it up on the lift and give it a look. I told them to fix my steering wheel so that it is centered...and that I want to increase my caster to 2.00. This evening i picked up my truck (after them not calling or talking to me or anything). The guy who i had been talking to all day already left too. The guy at the desk gave me a printout of the current alignment, but said he didnt know why the computer wasn't able to read the caster.

This is the printout

camber:
FL total FR
-.3 -.4 .1

toe:
FL FR
.08 .08

My steering wheel is now slightly to the right when traveling straight...even on flat roads. Why would this be if my toe is exact on both side???

I'm pissed though. I've paid for some 5 year alignment thing, and now they can't even give me a read on my caster. (my gf says im just being too picky about the wheel off center, but it was just aligned...it shouldnt be out of wack) I'm sick of dealing with this place. I already called their customer service people down in Flordia and told them that this place can't give me the service that I paid for (i was nice about it though). They said I could probably get a refund, but they would have to give it to upper management. They said that I could also try and go through the store. I don't want to go through the store though because I know that they will just come up with some BS answer as to why. I think i'm just going to dispute the charge on the credit card and maybe I will call up the store and tell them that I've already filed a report with customer service and that if they (the store) doesn't give me a refund, then I'm going to demand it from upper management since my complaint is already going to them. What do you think?

Has anyone else had any luck with Merchants tire and auto....a division of Tire Kingdom?

[DJ]

It's time to play Sherlock Holmes (or Hercule Poirot, depending on your preference). An explanation of this situation has to fit all the observed facts, else it is neither complete nor correct. This one is easy.

1) The printout doesn't show caster.

The printout doesn't show caster because they didn't measure caster.

Measuring caster is a routine procedure and is part of every alignment job. It involves steering the wheels to the left (guided by the aligner display), at which point the aligner saves some sensor measurements, followed by steering the wheels to the right (again guided by the aligner display), at which point the aligner saves some more sensor measurements and computes the left and right caster values.

ALL aligners measure caster. The alignment technician not measuring caster shows him to be an untrained, incompetent buffoon.

2) "The guy at the desk gave me a printout of the current alignment, but said he didnt know why the computer wasn't able to read the caster."

See #1, above. This shows "guy at the desk" to be untrained in wheel alignment. He doesn't know what he doesn't know.

3) " My steering wheel is now slightly to the right when traveling straight...even on flat roads. Why would this be if my toe is exact on both side???"

This is bit subtle, so follow it carefully.

The value of "individual toe" of a wheel (i.e. left toe or right toe) is a measure of the "pointing direction" of the wheel. It is a "live" measurement. If you steer the wheels a bit to the right, right toe will show more negative and left toe will show more positive. So, the printout of left and right toe is simply a snapshot of the current values for left and right toe at the time the printout was made.

Your printout shows left and right toe are equal at 0.08, yet your steering wheel is not straight when the vehicle rolls in a straight line. This means the alignment technician simply steered the wheels until the displays of left and right toe were equal, and then made the printout.

Your individual toe values are not correct because the steering wheel is off, and he tried to fool you that it wasn't. He is fundamentally dishonest.

4) "my gf says im just being too picky about the wheel off center, but it was just aligned...it shouldnt be out of wack."

Getting the steering wheel level when the vehicle rolls in a straight line is a routine part of EVERY alignment job. Not getting it straight is disgraceful. Stating that you should not expect it to be straight is pathetic -- he is making excuses for his incompetence.

5) Total toe is the sum of individual toe, thus your total toe is 0.08. Your post doesn't say whether the units of toe with this printout are "inches" or "degrees". The standard conversion used in this country is "two inches of toe = one degree of toe". If the units are degrees, then your total toe is off. If the units are inches, then your total toe is way off. Incorrect total toe is a severe tire wear factor.

6) Left camber is -.3, which means the left wheel leans inward. Right camber is +.1, which means the right wheel leans outward. The difference between the two is 0.4, which is disgraceful.

7) "I've paid for some 5 year alignment thing".

You did NOT get what you paid for. The "technician" who did whatever was done is incompetent, untrained, and dishonest, and his service manager, regarding alignment, is incompetent.

When dealing with someone in the public sector and you can get satisfaction from him, just go over his head to his boss. Keep going as high up as you have to. Stand your ground, as you are in the right. I would get my money back and I would never set foot in that shop again.

[pearldrums287]

thanks dj. I appreciate your help. What you said is exactly what one of my buddies last night was telling me (former yota tech). I've talked to this company's upper management, ive disputed the charge with american express, and just now I called the individual store and told them I want my money back. They tried to tell me that I could only drop back to a regular alignment (a ripoff of 75 bucks), but then I said that I would pursue and follow through with upper management and the credit company, in which he said to come by today and he would give me a full refund. Believe me...I am never going back there. I am going to toyota, asking for the team that my friend recommended, telling them what I want adjusted, and then asking for a before and after printout....no less.

DJ: I have the specs that you have suggested of camber: +.25 degrees, caster: +2.00 degrees, and total toe: +.08 degrees. Is there any reason that these numbers should fluctuate in order to get the steering wheel perfect, or if the truck is set on these numbers, there should be no excuse as to why the truck acts up?

Thanks man I appreciate it.

Anyone else reading this...stay away from Merchant's tire and auto, a division of tire kingdom.

[DJ]

Originally Posted by pearldrums287

[...]

DJ: I have the specs that you have suggested of camber: +.25 degrees, caster: +2.00 degrees, and total toe: +.08 degrees. Is there any reason that these numbers should fluctuate in order to get the steering wheel perfect, or if the truck is set on these numbers, there should be no excuse as to why the truck acts up?

[...]

Don't try to reform them, just get your money and go.

The numbers you quoted above are what I recommended years ago for the early model Tundras. Evidently Toyota wised up a bit, as they specified higher caster values for the newer model Tundras. Even so, they need all the caster they can get.

The alignment console has a built-in spec database that will have Toyota's specs for your Tundra. I suggest setting camber and total toe dead on Toyota's recommended settings for your vehicle, and setting caster right at the upper end of the range that Toyota's specs for your vehicle allows. This method has been used by lots of people on this forum and the reports have invariably been good.

[DevinSixtySeven]

Originally Posted by pearldrums287

and when my wheels are turned all the way to the left, my left tire rubs against my mud flap.

Read over DJ's explanation of how the alignment cams work, and it'll make sense. Are you using a tire size other than stock (265/70/16 or equivalent)? If the rear cam is adjusted in (LBJ moves rearward) or forward cam is adjusted out (LBJ moves rearward), the tire is more likely to rub the back of the wheel well, or in my case it will kiss the frame at full lock.

If you've lifted, the lift decreases caster (among other things). To get it back, the cams must be pushed near their max displacements, meaning the LBJ moves forward and rubbing is minimized. If you lowered the truck after messing with it, or just installed larger tires (265/75/16 or equivalent) with no lift, a new alignment can definately cause rub...but that problem and the solution have nothing to do with alignment...good alignment is paramount and definately takes precedence over tire size and rubbing problems--bad alignment can get you killed.

My criteria for finding a tire shop have always been a smaller, "neighborhood" shop, modern equipment and knowledgable staff. Ask about their equipment, model numbers, alignment process, ask if they've aligned your vehicle model in the past and if they're able to hit target numbers with their software. Even within a brand, different shops will give you different service--I've stuck with Big-O since I bought new tires and only once have I had a bad xperience...rushed staff, lousy desk jockey, new location/tools/employees all led to a poor alignment and the same sort of brushing off you received. On the flip side, the other five Big-Os I've been to have all been top-notch as far as service, knowledgability and general friendliness--that's the Big-O in Moab, the Big-O in Louisville CO, a former Big-O on Harshmann Road in Dayton OH (now a Tire Kingdom, same parent company so it's listed as Big-O on their store locator), the Big-O in Grand Junction CO, and a Big-O in New Castle, IN. I have plenty of stories regarding how helpful those guys were, and when I went back years later to the place in Louisville CO, they even remembered me, remounted and rebalanced all my tires for free, let me in the back room while they did the alignment, and in general have been really, really great...I'm so glad they finally got a Hunter alignment setup, and I'd recommend them to anybody.

Just gotta find the right people!

Good luck looking...there are more than you think. It's a lot easier if you can find a place off hours, then ask them the difficult questions when they're not beset by all of suburbia .

-Sean

[James800]

Originally Posted by DevinSixtySeven

Read over DJ's explanation of how the alignment cams work, and it'll make sense. Are you using a tire size other than stock (265/70/16 or equivalent)? If the rear cam is adjusted in (LBJ moves rearward) or forward cam is adjusted out (LBJ moves rearward), the tire is more likely to rub the back of the wheel well, or in my case it will kiss the frame at full lock.

If you've lifted, the lift decreases caster (among other things). To get it back, the cams must be pushed near their max displacements, meaning the LBJ moves forward and rubbing is minimized. If you lowered the truck after messing with it, or just installed larger tires (265/75/16 or equivalent) with no lift, a new alignment can definately cause rub...but that problem and the solution have nothing to do with alignment...good alignment is paramount and definately takes precedence over tire size and rubbing problems--bad alignment can get you killed.

My criteria for finding a tire shop have always been a smaller, "neighborhood" shop, modern equipment and knowledgable staff. Ask about their equipment, model numbers, alignment process, ask if they've aligned your vehicle model in the past and if they're able to hit target numbers with their software. Even within a brand, different shops will give you different service--I've stuck with Big-O since I bought new tires and only once have I had a bad xperience...rushed staff, lousy desk jockey, new location/tools/employees all led to a poor alignment and the same sort of brushing off you received. On the flip side, the other five Big-Os I've been to have all been top-notch as far as service, knowledgability and general friendliness--that's the Big-O in Moab, the Big-O in Louisville CO, a former Big-O on Harshmann Road in Dayton OH (now a Tire Kingdom, same parent company so it's listed as Big-O on their store locator), the Big-O in Grand Junction CO, and a Big-O in New Castle, IN. I have plenty of stories regarding how helpful those guys were, and when I went back years later to the place in Louisville CO, they even remembered me, remounted and rebalanced all my tires for free, let me in the back room while they did the alignment, and in general have been really, really great...I'm so glad they finally got a Hunter alignment setup, and I'd recommend them to anybody.

Just gotta find the right people!

Good luck looking...there are more than you think. It's a lot easier if you can find a place off hours, then ask them the difficult questions when they're not beset by all of suburbia .

-Sean

Wow big-O i have heard nothing but bad things about them here in denver... BUt i never did go to one in longmont!