Is it just the Tacoma wheels that have problems? I'm going to be putting FJ Cruiser wheels on soon and after reading all of this, do I need to have it Road Force balanced using a lug centric adapter?
I don't think it's the wheels, but the tires. In 05 when the new Taco came out, many people had vibration issues and it seemed it was the tires. Toyota was using 2 or 3 different brand of tires and it seemed one brand caused more issues than the others.
Is it just the Tacoma wheels that have problems? I'm going to be putting FJ Cruiser wheels on soon and after reading all of this, do I need to have it Road Force balanced using a lug centric adapter?
I don't think it's really the wheels or tires, but instead I think the Tacoma is very sensitive to the front wheels being even the slightest bit out of balance. Combine this with the fact that most tire places (including Toyota dealerships) balance the wheels by the hub and not the lugs, and the wheels rarely get accurately balanced. That's my two cents.
The frustrating thing is that we the owners have had to figure this out on our own. This is a pretty simple problem that's been a big pain to figure out. When I called my dealership and told them I was still having problems after putting on new tires, they told me that "big tires just vibrate sometimes." WHAT A LOAD!!! It's not like I've got huge aftermarket tires . The Firestones are the same size and similar tread pattern as the stock BFG's. The BFG's vibrated from 20,000 miles on and so did the Firestones until I finally got a perfect balance. Toyota dealerships should know that a lug-centric adapter is necessary to balance Tacoma wheels and they should ALL have one. Sounds like most, if not all, do not.
I don't think it's really the wheels or tires, but instead I think the Tacoma is very sensitive to the front wheels being even the slightest bit out of balance. Combine this with the fact that most tire places (including Toyota dealerships) balance the wheels by the hub and not the lugs, and the wheels rarely get accurately balanced. That's my two cents.
Yes, I agree that the front end on the Taco might be more sensitive to unbalanced wheels/tires. I think that is one reason Toyota came out with the steering flutter TSB ... to "stiffen up" the steering rack on the truck.
Obviously, the lug nut holes must be more concentric to the wheel than the hub bore ... otherwise Toyota wouldn't stipulate that lug centric balancing method should be used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwcet8k
The frustrating thing is that we the owners have had to figure this out on our own. This is a pretty simple problem that's been a big pain to figure out. When I called my dealership and told them I was still having problems after putting on new tires, they told me that "big tires just vibrate sometimes." WHAT A LOAD!!! It's not like I've got huge aftermarket tires . The Firestones are the same size and similar tread pattern as the stock BFG's. The BFG's vibrated from 20,000 miles on and so did the Firestones until I finally got a perfect balance. Toyota dealerships should know that a lug-centric adapter is necessary to balance Tacoma wheels and they should ALL have one. Sounds like most, if not all, do not.
So how often did you rotate the tires? This could be part of the issue.
I have the Bridgestones on my 2005 TRD Sport and they have been silk smooth since day one. I can hit 100 mph with no signs of vibration or steering flutter. Guess I'm fortunate that mine behaves. I also check air pressure once a month and rotate the tires every 7500 miles to keep the wear pattern even on all tires.
So how often did you rotate the tires? This could be part of the issue.
How often they're rotated doesn't seem to matter. Usually the problem begins to occur when they're rotated. That's my experience. I had problems with both the Dunlops, BFG Rugged Trails, Goodyear Wranglers (returned after 1 month due to multiple defects, 3 of 5 tires were defective...and balancing issues), and finally have BFG All Terrains. The All Terrains have been the best as far as eliminating the steering flutter. However, when I rotated them with 6-7K miles on them, then I got the steering flutter again. They were rebalanced twice of a road force balancer with no luck. I've since moved just the right front tire to the rear and the flutter is completely gone. So, I've learned never to rotate tires on these Tacomas. It really is too sensitive to balance issues...or maybe it's a problem with toyota's specialized mag lugs having too much room in the wheels which causes them to not center properly? I've checked with a couple of tire/wheel stores about replacement lugs since mine are all falling apart and they stated that you can't use anything but toyota's lugs with the stock wheels. Wouldn't surprise me if there's a little too much play in how those wheels mount, and that would explain why the tires all balance great on the machines yet cause a flutter when run on the front of the truck.
__________________
"Think Outside the Box!"
'05 4x4 DC LB SR5 Tow Pkg BFG All-Terrain T/A KO, Leer Tonneau, Westin Platinum Nerf Bars, Fog and Map Light Mods, Orig. Owner 12/3/04
How often they're rotated doesn't seem to matter. Usually the problem begins to occur when they're rotated. That's my experience. I had problems with both the Dunlops, BFG Rugged Trails, Goodyear Wranglers (returned after 1 month due to multiple defects, 3 of 5 tires were defective...and balancing issues), and finally have BFG All Terrains. The All Terrains have been the best as far as eliminating the steering flutter. However, when I rotated them with 6-7K miles on them, then I got the steering flutter again. They were rebalanced twice of a road force balancer with no luck. I've since moved just the right front tire to the rear and the flutter is completely gone. So, I've learned never to rotate tires on these Tacomas. It really is too sensitive to balance issues...or maybe it's a problem with toyota's specialized mag lugs having too much room in the wheels which causes them to not center properly? I've checked with a couple of tire/wheel stores about replacement lugs since mine are all falling apart and they stated that you can't use anything but toyota's lugs with the stock wheels. Wouldn't surprise me if there's a little too much play in how those wheels mount, and that would explain why the tires all balance great on the machines yet cause a flutter when run on the front of the truck.
Since I'm still getting some minor vibration with the Firestone Destination A/T's, would you recommend I try another tire? Discount will let me return the Firestone's, but I'm not sure that another tire would be any better. I'm considering putting on a new set of the BFG Rugged Trails that came on the truck OEM, since they were completely smooth until a rotation/balance at 20,000 miles. What do you recommend?
I'd probably give them 2 shots at getting it right (which is what I did before I got my full refund from them) and if they don't run smooth after that second try then definitely either switch tires or go somewhere else. Don't wait until it's too long to switch (I got my refund right around day 28).
__________________
"Think Outside the Box!"
'05 4x4 DC LB SR5 Tow Pkg BFG All-Terrain T/A KO, Leer Tonneau, Westin Platinum Nerf Bars, Fog and Map Light Mods, Orig. Owner 12/3/04
FIXED!!! I finally gave up on the Firestone's (after four attempts to balance them) and returned them for a set of BFG Rugged Trail's. Discount balanced them on the Road Force using the lug adapter and it's as smooth as can be. What a relief! The first time in 25,000 miles that the steering wheel doesn't shake.
So the lesson I'm taking from this is once the wheels are balanced and there's no vibration, don't touch them with a ten foot pole! This problem started at 20,000 miles with an unnecessary balance and just now got resolved at 45,000 miles. Better late than never. Thanks for all your feedback!
How often they're rotated doesn't seem to matter. Usually the problem begins to occur when they're rotated. That's my experience. I had problems with both the Dunlops, BFG Rugged Trails, Goodyear Wranglers (returned after 1 month due to multiple defects, 3 of 5 tires were defective...and balancing issues), and finally have BFG All Terrains. The All Terrains have been the best as far as eliminating the steering flutter. However, when I rotated them with 6-7K miles on them, then I got the steering flutter again. They were rebalanced twice of a road force balancer with no luck. I've since moved just the right front tire to the rear and the flutter is completely gone. So, I've learned never to rotate tires on these Tacomas.
I've rotated my OEM tires a couple of times now, and have never seen any added vibration or steering wheel flutter. Guess I've been lucky, but IMO the brand of tires that Toyota used (which were many) seem to make a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05Moose
It really is too sensitive to balance issues...or maybe it's a problem with toyota's specialized mag lugs having too much room in the wheels which causes them to not center properly? I've checked with a couple of tire/wheel stores about replacement lugs since mine are all falling apart and they stated that you can't use anything but toyota's lugs with the stock wheels. Wouldn't surprise me if there's a little too much play in how those wheels mount, and that would explain why the tires all balance great on the machines yet cause a flutter when run on the front of the truck.
What you said in red above could very well be part of the issue. The lug nuts are not tapered acorn type, but a straight shaft that fits inside a hole, and the big flat washer on the lug nut is what contacts the wheel. Maybe some of the wheels have slightly larger lug nut holes than others.
Whenever I R&R a wheel, I make sure that the lug nuts are snugged up really well (around 50 ~ 60 ft-llbs) while the tire is completely off the ground. I then put just enough weight on the tire to do the final lug nut torquing, and then put the full weight back on the tire. I wonder if the lug nuts were just barely snug, and the full weight was put on the tire before torquing, if that could mis-align the wheel to the hub just enough to cause a vibration or flutter.
I wonder if the lug nuts were just barely snug, and the full weight was put on the tire before torquing, if that could mis-align the wheel to the hub just enough to cause a vibration or flutter.
That's my thought too. I mentioned in a different thread (or maybe that was on TN) that my lug nuts are falling apart. I've now got 5 or 6 that no longer have the "decorative" piece over them (and I'll soon be taking the others off to remove the covers so I don't get stranded with them breaking on me). In looking to replace them, I've been told that I have to go with Toyota's lugs if using the stock wheels because other lugs cause problems. I don't like this style of lug because nothing really centers the tire perfectly. All 6 lugs can be run in by hand which tells me there must be enough space around each one that could allow the wheel to be slightly off-center when tightened down. So either the mag lugs used aren't the best solution or maybe the holes in the wheels are too large. Seems like there should at least be some resistance when running the lugs onto the studs.
__________________
"Think Outside the Box!"
'05 4x4 DC LB SR5 Tow Pkg BFG All-Terrain T/A KO, Leer Tonneau, Westin Platinum Nerf Bars, Fog and Map Light Mods, Orig. Owner 12/3/04
I don't like this style of lug because nothing really centers the tire perfectly. All 6 lugs can be run in by hand which tells me there must be enough space around each one that could allow the wheel to be slightly off-center when tightened down. So either the mag lugs used aren't the best solution or maybe the holes in the wheels are too large. Seems like there should at least be some resistance when running the lugs onto the studs.
Usually, wheels that use this kind of lug nut have hub centric wheels which means the center hole in the wheels fits snugly on a matching lip on the brake rotor (fronts) or brake drum/axle (rears). The hub centric feature would essentially center the wheel and then the non-tapered seat lug nuts would clamp the wheel to the hub.
I believe the Tacoma wheels have this feature ... but maybe the tolerances are not very tight which could cause some mis-alignment of the wheel. When I rotated my tires a few times, it did seem like the wheel would center on the hub and stay there (if you pushed in on the wheel) before the lugs were installed, which is an indication of a hub centric wheel.
I believe the Tacoma wheels have this feature ... but maybe the tolerances are not very tight which could cause some mis-alignment of the wheel. When I rotated my tires a few times, it did seem like the wheel would center on the hub and stay there (if you pushed in on the wheel) before the lugs were installed, which is an indication of a hub centric wheel.
That makes sense to me, but everyone claims this is a lug centric wheel and that it can't be balanced unless an adaptor is used. Now I am even more confused and I'm getting my new tires in a couple of weeks.
That makes sense to me, but everyone claims this is a lug centric wheel and that it can't be balanced unless an adaptor is used. Now I am even more confused and I'm getting my new tires in a couple of weeks.
Yeah, the guys at Discount swore the wheels were hub centric and even pulled the plastic cover off of one of the wheels and pointed out how the hub fit snugly in the wheel. At that point I had balanced the wheels three times using the hub, so I still insisted they use a lug centric adapter. I even called the dealer later and asked them if the wheels were lug centric. Their response? "I think so." Even they weren't certain.
That makes sense to me, but everyone claims this is a lug centric wheel and that it can't be balanced unless an adaptor is used. Now I am even more confused and I'm getting my new tires in a couple of weeks.
Without tapered seat type lug nut design, I think it would be hard to make the wheel "lug centric".
Usually, lug centric wheels (with tapered lug nut seats) are not hub centric, and usually hub centric are not lug centric unless they use both hub and lug centric features.
It is confusing that Toyota says to use a lug centric adaptor for balancing.
So my question is -- when the lug centric balance adaptor is installed on the wheel, how is it attached? Does it use the same lug nuts as the truck or something else?
Yeah, the guys at Discount swore the wheels were hub centric and even pulled the plastic cover off of one of the wheels and pointed out how the hub fit snugly in the wheel. At that point I had balanced the wheels three times using the hub, so I still insisted they use a lug centric adapter. I even called the dealer later and asked them if the wheels were lug centric. Their response? "I think so." Even they weren't certain.
There is one way to prove that they are or are not "hub centric". Jack the wheel up off the ground and remove all the lug nuts. Then try to slide the wheel around in the radial direction on the face of the brake rotor or brake drum. If you can not make it move then the wheel is hub centric.
Thanks for your email. I have had many phone calls concerning this very same situation. Many have stated that Toyota wheels are lug centric on forums and other places. The fact is that close to 100% of factory wheels from all manufacturers are hub centric. The term lug centric has become more popular because of custom aftermarket wheels. Today, many custom wheel manufacturers will design a wheel with an oversized hub bore so they will fit a wider range of applications. Because these wheels have an oversized hub bore, the installer then must install what is known as “hub rings” to compensate for the gap that was created due to the oversized hub bore in the wheel. If the hub rings are not installed or the wrong size hub ring is installed, the wheel cannot be centered correctly on the vehicles hub. Many custom wheel outfitters do not install these rings and just assume that the wheel will be able to be centered by the lug nuts. The problem is that the majority of shops use cones and a pressure disc only to balance wheels. There is a video on our website titled “Centering Solution” that will explain why many people like yourself are not getting a good balance. Our web address is HAWEKA USA Inc.
The best way to balance a any wheel assembly is to mount the wheel assembly to the balancer the exact same way that it is mounted on the vehicle. This is the belief of HAWEKA and it has been proven time and time again for 40 years through the use of Haweka adapters. The design of all Haweka precision adapters is to do just that. We build our adapters to exactly replicate the mounting situation from the vehicle and transfer it to the balancer.
This has been explained and demonstrated to a tire chain in your area called Town Fair Tire. Town Fair is in the process of outfitting all of their stores with our balancing adapters. From your zip code I have found two stores that are already equipped with our equipment and have reported excellent results and are very pleased with using our adapters.
Re: Steering "Flutter" - Yes, I've searched...
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