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Originally Posted by elfiero
First off DO NOT try to use E85 in your Taco!! No, it will not "hurt the engine"- It will however destroy the rest of your fuel delivery system. Every hose, every O-ring, possibly even the fuel pump-depending on what it's constructed from.
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The evidence from this is still a little lacking for modern fuel systems. Ethanol mixes have been known to soften fuel system components. This is not limited to E85, but as little as E10. This was a common problem in the late 80s when BMW motorcycle division first came out with their fuel injected motorcycles. The primary problem was that if left standing in the tank, the fuel would soften the rubber mounting of the fuel pump to the point that the pump would actually try to suck it in. This would instantly destroy the pump. We saw this happen several times in the 8 years I worked at the dealership service department.
However, this was, as I said, in the late 80s when ethanol blends were first being added to many stations. It's been over 20 years since, and most auto manufacturers have hardened they systems to combat the corrosive nature of ethanol. Rubber lines still have some concern, however I have little doubt that most fuel system components in any car manufactured after 2000 would contain little else to be of concern. The most that you will need to worry about is replacing the rubber hoses with hoses that are not affected. Most race shops should be able to direct you in the right direction.
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I used to have a flex fuel S10 and I ran E85 quite often in it. The price difference was offset by the reduction in mpg so the actual cost per mile for fuel was exactly the same! this was including the $.50/gal price subsidy and the federal price support of the corn used to manufacture it!!!
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There is no actual price subsity for E85. There are price incentives for stations to install E85 pumps, but nothing for the fuel itself. This is an often quoted misconception.
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E85 is a scam, switchgrass would be a much better product to use to make alcohol, but the corn growers lobby in D.C. will NEVER let that happen!
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I don't think it is nearly as big of a conspiracy as you think it is. Presently there is little to no price incentive to develop and build celulose-based ethanol plants. The problem is that there is not enough market for ethanol to pay for such an investment. I'm sure that will change in teh next 10 years, but it will certainly take time, and more manufacturers will need to support flex fuel vehicles to make this a reality.
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Back to your question about the use of E85 in your Toyota- Presently, none of their vehicles are made to use it, and there are no "conversion kits" on the market that address every possible potential problem that may arise from the use of any fuel other than good old gasoline.
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The major drawback is that ethanol requires about 15% greater duty cycle of the injectors. There are several methods of addressing this, including larger injectors, aftermarket ECUs, modded ecus, or piggyback ecus. The flex fuel vehicles have an additional sensor that measures the amount of O2 in the exhaust, and based on that will increase or decrease the duty cycle of the injectors. This is not much different than the way most injected cars do for emmissions controls, but requires a little more adjustment. Most stock cars handle a 15% variange to handle the normal variations of fuel quality and other environmental conditions. This is not quite enough to meet both those requirements and E85s' requirements all of the time. At best, you could probably get by running on E20, E30 or even E50-70, depending on the environment, without any added modifications to your ECU.
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P.S. Try putting one of those funky kits on your truck and then bring it back to toyota for ANY warranty work and I'll bet they laugh you right out the back door of the service area.
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Yes, most dealers would find it ammusing. Depending on the dealer, they may ignore the device, and perform the warranty work anyways, or try to refuse to service your vehicle. It really depends on the dealer and your relationship to them. Toyota would most certainly not be amused, so if the dealer performs warranty work that relates to the fuel system, they won't be sharing the use of E85 with Toyota. However, the factory warranty, and probably even the Toyota-backed extended warranty is required by law to cover any damage that is not related to customer installed components. This means if you use E85, and have a modified ECU, they won't cover the ECU, but would still have to cover any parts not related to the ECU. This would only rule out the fuel system, and they may also complain about the engine itself, although that would vary, depending on who you talked to. The rest of the drive train would still be covered.
Now, as for concerns about the engine... The engine will not be hurt from running E85 unless you are running lean. Your Check Engine Light will warn you about that before you have any engine damage. Adding a ECU helper, or larger injectors will take care of this, as they will both be adding additional fuel to your mixture.
There are other concerns... Ethanol is water soluible. This ads some concern as it could contaminate your engine oil if not handled properly. The truth to this is that modern fuel systems are closed systems that do not allow mixture of outside air in the tank when the fuel cap is closed. This reduces the possibility that there will be any water moisture in the system. Very little to worry about here. Even if there was some concern, unless you have a very high mileage engine, you aren't going to need to worry about oil contamination, and even then, the worry from ethanol is not any more than that from gasoline.
If you have any mileage on your vehicle, be prepared to change the fuel filter a few times after switching to E85. This is because running ethanol will actually act as a solvent and clean your fuel system, depositing any contaminants into your fuel system. I would not plan any long trips after first starting to run ethanol, as you may be changing the filter every couple tanks at first. Make sure you are comfortable doing this yourself, as you don't want to have to pay the dealer to do this.
There are several companies that offer kits to convert to E85. I would recommend doing research on the companies, and how they achieve their conversion. Most add a piggy back module to the ECU. Some add a sensor to be able to dynamically change the injector duty cycle. I would recommend this route, if even more expensive, as it will give you better fuel economy than just dumping an additional 15% fuel into the system, even if it is not needed.
As for fuel economy... You will likely get worse. There have been reports of some vehicles with advanced engine designs or higher compression actually getting better economy with E85 than with gasoline. I honestly do not know where the Toyota engines will fall, as they are certainly amung the more advances designs on the market.
As with any advice you get on the forums... Take all of it with a grain of salt, and remember... You are the party responsible for your actions, and if you choose to use E85 on your Toyota, you need to make sure that it is running properly, or you will be paying for some possibly expensive repairs.
Sorry for the above book, and for any typos. It's late, and I'm tired, but I felt that this was too important of an issue to juse be dismissed with outdated information.
-jt2
E85
(My tacoma is almost a month old already!)
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