I don't really know what the maximum pressure on the Goodyears is, but I run 26lbs. in the front and 29lbs in the back. If I could get away with running 10lbs in all the tires I would. This truck is very stiff in it's ride quality. o mankind to try to settle this thing down!
BTW------I'm assuming that you also have the styled steel wheels?
Yes, I have the styled steel wheels. My truck rides like a Lexus with the Bridgestone tires.
It's beginning to sound like Goodyear slipped you a set of 6 ply tires which are entirely too stiff for a Tundra.
I know a really bright Goodyear salesman who made the mistake of putting 6 ply LT metric tires on his Ranger. He could hardly keep the sucker on the road. He didn't know that Goodyear made a 4 ply all-terrain tire for his truck until I gave him the Goodyear stock number over the phone.....and I was the customer. There's no substitute for knowing what you're doing.
A similarily bright Firestone salesman said I should install LT metric 6 ply tires on my Tundra rather than P metric 4 plies.
On the other hand, the guy who sold me the Bridgestones told me if I put 6 ply tires on my truck I would regret the decision.
Of the 3 "experts" I talked to he was the only one who knew what he was talking about.
You've managed to kick my curiosity into high gear. Would it be too much to ask you to read the fine print on the side of one tire and report back as to the ply rating, size designation, max inflation pressure, Load Rating designation or load capacity in pounds? That will tell the story.
Based on your decription of ride quality, or a lack thereof, I'll betcha a warm beer you have 6 ply tires.
Did your truck not ride like a Lexus with the Dunlops? I originally had Dunlop Grandtreks on the truck when I bought it. I thought maybe my problem was the Dunlops 'cause I had a vibe problem once before with them. Now I have Goodyear Wrangler RT/S. The ride quality did improve a little.
Here are the stats: M+S P265/70-16
Tread 4 plies, 2 Polyester cord, 2 Steel cord
Sidewall 2 plies 44lbs. max pressure
Generally I think a 2WD has a softer ride than a 4WD, but I think in the case of the Tundra, they might use the same springs in both versions (pretty stiff springs for a 1/2 ton), and because the 4WD would weigh more it tends to settle down the ride. Everyone I talk with that has a 4WD say they have a Lexus ride. I guarantee you if you drove my 2WD you would not say that.
I went for a ride with a service manager from Toyota a few days ago and asked him if he thought the ride of my truck was normal. His responce was yes. "It is a truck and it rides like a truck"
I told my girlfriend the other day that I figured out why they call it a Tundra------'cause when you drive it that is where you think you are!
I live in Ohio and the roads here have something to be desired because of the really cold winter we've had. I did notice yesterday, (sun was shining, about 42 degrees) that the ride did seem smoother than when it was real cold. I think the warmer temps and the sun start to thaw the frozen ground making the roads settle back into their original state. Also the warmer temps soften the rubber in the tires making them more pliable.
Anyway, which Bridgestones do you have? Why did you choose them over a Michelin? Do you think they are comparable?
Glad to know you're still here. I have a question. I intend to have a shop align the front end of my 4x4 to your specs. on a Hunter 611. Shop personnel have never aligned a Tundra and they are a bit different. I have the shop manual and have pretty much figured out how to do this myself, while the tech looks on, if it comes to that.
I notice that the heads on the adjustment bolts are about 1/2 normal thickness and must be tightened to 96 foot-pounds following adjustment of the eccentric cams. How in the world do you get on those bolt heads with a 22mm socket and a torque wrench with the rack boot in the way? My thinking is that it may be necessary to remove the clamp on the small end of the boot and compress the boot until it's no longer an obstacle, providing that's possible. Is this the correct way to do it or would it be just as acceptable to work with a box end wrench and pull the bolt up as tight as possible by hand while leaving the boot alone?
Herb
I would not describe the Tundra as "a bit different". Camber and caster are adjusted by cams at the pivots of the lower control arms -- that scheme has been in use for decades, and the Tundra implements it quite well.
The Tundra is about the easiest vehicle to align that I've ever aligned. Everything is easily accessible and easy to adjust. However, getting camber and caster both correct at the same time is a cast iron nightmare unless the "CAMM" display of the Hunter aligner is used. The guys at your shop should learn how to use this display, and it's easy.
The steps are:
1) Recall the factory specs for the Tundra, then edit those specs to my settings. Now the console has the correct specs and knows that a Tundra is being aligned, which means that it knows the geometry of the front suspension.
2) Bring up the CAMM display and follow the on-screen instructions.
3) Begin with the left wheel. Adjust the front cam while watching the bar graph on the display until the front cam is adjusted properly, which happens when the bar graph arrow is centered. Don't scrimp here -- nail it.
4) Press the "k4" key at the console, which tells the console that this cam has been adjusted.
5) Now adjust the rear cam while watching the bar graph.
6) If the adjustments aren't perfect, just repeat steps 3-5 again. Get it right.
6) Repeat for the right wheel.
7) Adjust toe.
If this is done correctly, meaning the adjustments are made until the bar graph is centered for both cams, then camber and caster will be dead on spec for that wheel. It takes about five minutes per wheel when I do it.
As to torque wrenches, I use a box end wrench that has a box on one end and a 1/2" socket mount on the other. This lets you put the wrench on a conventional torque wrench.
Originally posted by DJ As to torque wrenches, I use a box end wrench that has a box on one end and a 1/2" socket mount on the other. This lets you put the wrench on a conventional torque wrench.
Thanks DJ. I will print that out and take it with me.
The reason I concluded that this system of alignment is a bit different is because of what I experienced trying to have it aligned on a 611 by an ASE certified technician working in a Blue Seal shop that is not only a Michelin dealer but also does brake and other repair work.
The tech was afraid to try to change the alignment (well within Toyota specs.) despite the audio/video explanation on the machine as to how to do it. He didn't have a clue as how to proceed and more or less refused to try.
Then I talked directly with the alignment tech at the local Toyota dealer. When I showed him your specs he visibly bristled and told me it was almost impossible to align a Tundra that precisely and he wouldn't guarantee that he could. Of course, he's been trying to do it on Bear equipment which would explain his lack of confidence. Recently they did acquire a second hand 311 but in looking at the display we found that the computer lacked the necessary data to check much less align any Toyota product made after 1999. This seems a bit odd until you consider that this is a GM dealer who also sells Toyotas. Their focus is on GM.
That may explain why I feel a need to be able to do this work myself.
Thanks for the tool tip. According to the instructions that came with my Craftsman torque wrench, this device is called a drive extension. In the trade, I think the term "crow's foot" is used. These seem to come in 2 forms; one that is similar to an open end wrench and the other has a box end with a cutout for use on flare nuts. These are the only 2 I've have been able to find looking through tool catalogs and I have yet to find anyone who offers either in 22mm.
What brand of tool do you have and what is the part number?
Did your truck not ride like a Lexus with the Dunlops?
"It is a truck and it rides like a truck"
Anyway, which Bridgestones do you have? Why did you choose them over a Michelin? Do you think they are comparable?
Hmmm....I guess I owe you a warm beer.
My truck came with the same Dunlop tires. At the same inflation pressures, the ride was silky smooth but mushy and the handling was vague. I also noticed quite a lot of understeer. At about 35 mph, the front end vibrated like crazy. The correct term is "front end shimmy". That surfaced on a predelivery test drive which the dealer dismissed as beng a road problem.
I live out in the country -- in the middle of nowhere -- where AT tires are a must, as a minimum. I was really disappointed to see an expensive 4x4 equipped with cheap street tires.
Even though I had decided to ditch the Dunlops on first sight, I started increasing the inflation pressure in 2 psi increments above recommended just to see how the tires would respond. When I hit 35 psi, on a tire rated for a max pressure of 51 psi, the shimmy was gone but the ride was so rough I could hardly believe it. Let me put that in perspective: I have a heavy duty Ford 3/4 ton 2WD that I use for heavy hauling. The tires are 10 ply (Load Range E). I maintain 80 psi pressure in the rear tires and 50-60 psi in the front. When I hit 35 psi or so inside the Dunlop tires, I thought I was driving the Ford....it was that bad.
I spent a lot of time on the internet shopping for all-terrain tires that I could find locally and afford. I was surprised to find that there isn't much to choose from in brand names I've ever heard of. I found the BFG Rugged Trail (no thanks), the BFG All-Terrain TA/KO (too darned stiff) and the Bridgestone Dueler A/T D693 which is what I wound up buying....and I felt lucky to get them. I would have preferred the Revos but those were stuck on a ship somewhere out in the Pacific.
Why did I feel lucky to get them? I called a Firestone/Bridgestone dealer who told me he had 4 tires (P265's) in stock and would be happy to talk trade for the Dunlops. When I got there (a 30 mile drive) he only had 2 tires in that size and tried to substitute a smaller size plus he decided that the Dunlops really weren't worth anything to him. (Bait and switch). They also said they couldn't get any tires in my size because there simply weren't any available.
Then I went to a small independent tire shop some 45 miles in the opposite direction where I wound up doing business. He found 11 Bridgestone tires in a warehouse in Kansas City which is 100 miles to the south...but not before he tried to talk me into a set of BFG Rugged Trail tires he just happened to have in stock.
When shopping for tires, we must realize that the best tires for our truck are the tires the dealer has in stock. That's just the way it works. So, it's up to each of us to do our homework, decide what we want to buy, and then do it without being sidetracked by a tire dealer. There are 2 exceptions:
1. When a dealer advises against putting a 6 ply tire on a 1/2 ton, that's good advice. 2. When a Dunlop dealer tells me that he doesn't think much of Dunlop tires (this actually happened) I tend to believe it.
So what do I think of these Bridgestone tires? I drove to the tire shop on the Dunlops and returned on the Bridgestones. I could not believe the difference! The mushy ride and vague handling were gone as was much of the understeer. Even my wife noticed the difference.
The Bridgestone tires work for me. On occasion I haul firewood up and down very steep hills off road. With an LSD in the rear, I don't need 4WD to get around. This was not the case with my 96 Ranger sporting a set of Firestone Wilderness AT tires and an LSD in the rear.
As far as "It is a truck and it rides like a truck." is concerned, that's baloney. Yours might, but mine certainly doesn't. Having driven "trucks" for years, I consider the Tundra (and the F150) to be heavy duty cars with a truck body. If you don't believe that, take a test drive in a new Ford F250 Super Duty 4x4 and notice the difference....and take that guy with you.
One of the selling points for a Tundra is the wonderfully smooth ride. When driving mine across a rough pasture, it reminds me of a 79 Pontiac station wagon I once owned.
I did notice that when the Bridgestones were new and were allowed to stand idle for several days at cold temperatures, they became very stiff and would induce some front end vibration for a few miles. Now, with 2,000 miles of use, this doesn't happen.
If I lived in town I would buy the Michelins. Out here in the wilderness, the Bridgestones work just fine at a lessor cost.
I've been wondering why everyone keeps saying how smooth their truck rides and mine doesn't. I'd love to be able to drive sombody's truck that claims to ride smooth and in turn have them drive mine. They are probably thinking that I'm crazy. Now if I drive down a freshly paved road I'm sure the ride would be like a Lexus. The problems start when you hit any bumps, no matter what the size. I've been driving down the same stretch of highway for 7 years now. I've driven my old F-150, a Montecarlo, 2 loaner Kias, and 2 loaner Matrix. The ride of all those vehicles is far superior to the Tundra. Truthfully though, if there were no bumps on that road then the Tundra would be the best.
Is it posible that the 2000-2002 year Tundras were using a softer spring setup? Maybe the fact is a 2002 4x4 Tundra does ride better than a 2003 2WD. Just that simple! Everybody is right!
I use my truck basically as a big car. Occasionally I tow my boat (about 2500lbs,) and sometimes I tow dirtbikes (about 750 lbs.). I can afford to go with nice riding street tires 'cause I don't really have to worry about traction except for an occasional snow storm.
Thanks for the tire comparison, it sounds like I can expect a big improvement in the ride when I get better tires.
Originally posted by Herb Thanks DJ. I will print that out and take it with me.
The reason I concluded that this system of alignment is a bit different is because of what I experienced trying to have it aligned on a 611 by an ASE certified technician working in a Blue Seal shop that is not only a Michelin dealer but also does brake and other repair work.
The tech was afraid to try to change the alignment (well within Toyota specs.) despite the audio/video explanation on the machine as to how to do it. He didn't have a clue as how to proceed and more or less refused to try.
Then I talked directly with the alignment tech at the local Toyota dealer. When I showed him your specs he visibly bristled and told me it was almost impossible to align a Tundra that precisely and he wouldn't guarantee that he could. Of course, he's been trying to do it on Bear equipment which would explain his lack of confidence. Recently they did acquire a second hand 311 but in looking at the display we found that the computer lacked the necessary data to check much less align any Toyota product made after 1999. This seems a bit odd until you consider that this is a GM dealer who also sells Toyotas. Their focus is on GM.
That may explain why I feel a need to be able to do this work myself.
Thanks for the tool tip. According to the instructions that came with my Craftsman torque wrench, this device is called a drive extension. In the trade, I think the term "crow's foot" is used. These seem to come in 2 forms; one that is similar to an open end wrench and the other has a box end with a cutout for use on flare nuts. These are the only 2 I've have been able to find looking through tool catalogs and I have yet to find anyone who offers either in 22mm.
What brand of tool do you have and what is the part number?
Thanks again for your help.
Herb
Hmmm ...
Bear has been out of the alignment equipment business for many years now. If he has Bear equipment, it's really old and never was good when new. No wonder he's ticked off ...
The 311 won't know about the Tundra if it's software is vintage 1999. He can update the software very easily and inexpensively, since the software is contained in a replaceable cartridge that plugs into the back of the unit. I know the 311 has the CAMM display and can align a Tundra properly, because I designed the hardware and wrote the software for the 311, and because I've aligned my own Tundra and Sequoia with it. The CAMM display works exactly the same way and has the same appearance on all Hunter consoles that have it.
A Tundra can indeed be aligned very accurately. I know this because I have done it many times. BUT, it does require the use of the CAMM display to make it easy, and the CAMM display makes it VERY easy. With any other brand of alignment equipment than Hunter, it's a nightmare.
Yup, "crow's foot" is the correct term, but I couldn't think of it. (Two things happen as you age -- your memory fails, and I can't remember the other one.) I don't have one -- I used the one at the Hunter Training Center. I don't remember the brand name, but it was a black finish, like on impact sockets.
Originally posted by CYCLONE 123 I've been wondering why everyone keeps saying how smooth their truck rides and mine doesn't. I'd love to be able to drive sombody's truck that claims to ride smooth and in turn have them drive mine. They are probably thinking that I'm crazy. Now if I drive down a freshly paved road I'm sure the ride would be like a Lexus. The problems start when you hit any bumps, no matter what the size. I've been driving down the same stretch of highway for 7 years now. I've driven my old F-150, a Montecarlo, 2 loaner Kias, and 2 loaner Matrix. The ride of all those vehicles is far superior to the Tundra. Truthfully though, if there were no bumps on that road then the Tundra would be the best.
Is it posible that the 2000-2002 year Tundras were using a softer spring setup? Maybe the fact is a 2002 4x4 Tundra does ride better than a 2003 2WD.
Cyclone:
You're not crazy. I drove an 02 2wd and it was incredibly smooth riding. Then I bought the 4x4 and discovered that it does ride smoothly but is not in the same class as the 2WD.
I'm glad you mentioned rough roads. Most of the pavement I drive on is new concrete which is pretty smooth. BUT, when I drive on one of the lettered routes, paved with oil and chips complete with a few minor chuckholes and other irregularities, it's a completely different story. My 96 Ranger 4x4 and a 91 Probe were much smoother riding on rough surfaces...much smoother.
The market segment the Tundra was designed to attract would seem to be the suburban family that drives on smooth streets. For that service it works very well.
Just speculating now, but having tuned suspensions for enduro bikes I think the compression and damping rates of the front shocks are a bit off or poorly matched to the springs when driving on rough roads.
Having said that, the Tundra rides better on gravel roads than the Ranger did. It handles "stutter bumps" much more competently. I think that's because all 4 wheels leave the road at the same time (retractable landing gear) and float over the rough surface.
I just remembered something -- a few days ago a friend was here with his Honda CR-V, which is a mini-SUV. I test drove the CR-V on gravel and rough paved roads in this area. The ride and handling were far superior to a Tundra. What I discovered was that the roads around here aren't nearly as rough as I thought they were. I have to laugh as I write this because I've been grumbling to my wife and myself about how rough the roads seem to be getting. It ain't the roads -- it's the Tundra.
I'm not sure if I understood about the 2WD verses the 4WD. Did you think the 2WD was smoother? I thought the 4WD was smoother because of some comments that were written.
I'll get this truck more to my liking eventually. I've been wondering if changing the shocks would help? I notice some guys are using Bilsteins. I wonder if those would take me in the direction I want to go? I know what you mean about changing suspension on dirt bikes. You can get your shocks revalved for the type of riding you do and change spring rates for your weight too. I know how to go about dialing in bike suspensions, but I'm clueless as far as what is available for my truck.
I know if you make a change in the rear of a bike you better balance out the front too 'cause one effects the other. I would imagine the same applies to a truck suspension. I've been thinking about having a leaf taken out of the rear spring but I'm having a hard time finding a front coil that would balance out the whole package.
BTW-----I was checking out tires at the tire rack site and they have a really good comparison chart for tires. I noticed that YOKAHAMA tires rated alot better in every catagory than everything else. Not only that but were much cheaper. Do you know anything about these tires? Sounds too good to be true.
Originally posted by Herb As far as "It is a truck and it rides like a truck." is concerned, that's baloney. Yours might, but mine certainly doesn't. Having driven "trucks" for years, I consider the Tundra (and the F150) to be heavy duty cars with a truck body. If you don't believe that, take a test drive in a new Ford F250 Super Duty 4x4 and notice the difference....and take that guy with you.
Cyclone:
When I went back and read what I had to say, as indicated above, my hair stood straight up because the way I phrased that sounded like a hostile remark. I was writing one thing and thinking something else. What I said was what I would say to a dealer if he told me what your dealer told you.
It's worse than that. Being The Customer From Hell, I would check out a new Ford 3/4 for a test drive. The first stop would be to air up the rear tires to max. followed by a trip to my friendly Toyota dealer to take that same guy for a test drive to demonstrate the true meaning of the words "truck", " "ponderous" and "lumber wagon". Then I'd do the same thing with an F150 resting on slightly underiflated tires.
Of course, the caveat here is that both trucks might ride better than a Tundra, in which case this approach wouldn't work.
I don't know what to think about all this. Even a roller skate rides smoothly on a smooth surface. One thing I won't be doing is throwing money at the problem -- $25K is enough.
Your comments have caused me to resurrect some deeply suppressed memories on this subject. It's 5 miles from our house to smooth pavement. Everytime I make that trip I do it with grit teeth. I've found that a soothing Montavani CD played at high volume seems to help a lot. That way I can't hear myself moan about the crappy roads.
I would recommend the Michelin's , as My Tundra has 4 each & they do good.
On the bal. I have found from exp. & Toy. manual, You are allowed almost no Runnout on the tires or wheels if you have a vib. To cure mine when the truck was new I traded the dunlops for New Michelin XLT M/S 265/75R 16 C rating, all seemed OK , a little later as I got a few more miles on the Tundra, there seemed to be a vibe returning, tried diff. things; What worked was I found 1 Michelin with the tread runnout more than Toyota recommends. The Michelin tire dealer apoligized for my problem as he had almost no warranty's w/ Mitchelin,and warrantied the tire.
I run 45psi/F & 34psi/Rear with OE rims, this eliminated migration, vibration, and still rides and handles good; also I am getting good tire wear, as @ about 70G mi still have over half the tread remaining.
I'm not sure if I understood about the 2WD verses the 4WD. Did you think the 2WD was smoother? I thought the 4WD was smoother because of some comments that were written.
I'll get this truck more to my liking eventually. I've been wondering if changing the shocks would help? I notice some guys are using Bilsteins. I wonder if those would take me in the direction I want to go? I know what you mean about changing suspension on dirt bikes. You can get your shocks revalved for the type of riding you do and change spring rates for your weight too. I know how to go about dialing in bike suspensions, but I'm clueless as far as what is available for my truck.
I know if you make a change in the rear of a bike you better balance out the front too 'cause one effects the other. I would imagine the same applies to a truck suspension. I've been thinking about having a leaf taken out of the rear spring but I'm having a hard time finding a front coil that would balance out the whole package.
BTW-----I was checking out tires at the tire rack site and they have a really good comparison chart for tires. I noticed that YOKAHAMA tires rated alot better in every catagory than everything else. Not only that but were much cheaper. Do you know anything about these tires? Sounds too good to be true.
Cyclone:
The 2WD versus 4WD comparison may not always be valid. There are some unknown variables that enter into the equation along with individual perceptions and expectations which can vary all over the place.
In my case, I drove a 2WD access cab sitting on Bridgestone street tires at inflation pressures that may have been a bit low. My wife, who was sitting in the back seat at the time, commented that the Tundra seemed to ride better than anything we had ever owned in the past....and it did. I likened it to a Lexus.
Then I drove a used 2000 regular cab 4x4 sitting on a well-worn set of Bridgestone Dueler AT tires. Again, tire inflation pressures were unknown. It rode almost as smoothly as the 2WD but the tires were different. Frankly, I couldn't tell much difference between the two trucks.
Of course, since the salesman selected the route, the pavement was super smooth. Like I said, even a roller skate will ride smoothly on a smooth surface so the test drives were only relevant to use of the truck on smooth pavement. I say that in hindsight.
It was the last 5 miles on the trip home with the new regular cab truck ( quite a bit lighter in the rear than an access cab) that I came to realize that something up front isn't what I had in mind and certainly is not on a par with the Ranger I traded in.
Thinking back a few years, this Tundra reminds me, in terms of ride quality on rough roads, of a 1968 Dodge Dart with torsion bar suspension. I think that might be a fair comparison. But, for those who live in town and drive mostly on smooth streets, the Tunda performs very well. There's no denying that.
This calls to mind something I saw in another thread that seems entirely appropriate to this situation:
"Sometimes we outwit the system and sometimes the system outwits us."
Turning to the subject of Yokahama tires, all I know about that brand of tire is what an independent (can get almost anything) tire dealer told me. He said that when the tread is about 1/2 worn off, the treads tend to separate. I don't know if this is true or not but it may be something worth investigating before you take the plunge.
Michelin Tires
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