Tire Balance

[doctormdds]

Since having new Michelins put on the Sequoia, I have had a heck of a time with wheel balance problems. Because of this group, I am aware that the wheels are lug centric and not hub centric like most other wheels. So that the wheels can be properly balanced, an adapter for the Coats wheel balancer has been ordered by my tire dealer and they have been great trying to get my wheels balanced the best they can while we await the adapter. I am not sure why Toyota uses this means of centering the wheels but it certainly has been trying.

[DJ]

The wheels on your Sequoia are HUB centric, not LUG centric. It's easy to see this for yourself. Go unscrew one lug nut. You'll see that the business end of it is flat, and is actually a flat washer. The lug bolt pokes through a hole in the wheel that is noticeably larger than the bolt. Thus the bolt with its attached simply clamps the wheel to the hub and cannot possibly "locate" it on the hub. To see this further, jack up the wheel and remove all the lug nuts. You'll see the wheel is nicely centered by the center hole.

Your balance problem (given you've mounted Michelins, the best tires there are) could be due to "radial force variation" as well as a poor balance job on a poor balancer. Go see www.gsp9700.com and you'll see why. Then find a gsp9700 near you (the site will help) and go see.

[georgeseq]

I am merely echoing DJ's comments but my vibration problems in my Sequoia drove me nuts until I found a patient 9700 garage. In addition to the ultra fine balancing of the 9700, I actually had to rotate the spare and found one tire/rim combo that was giving me a slight, continuous fluttering vibration. It is now the smoothest vehicle I have ever driven! The 9700 was NOT able to detect the tire/wheel that was causing the problem and I never did find out exactly what it was but don't care: it is now my spare......

George Morrison

[doctormdds]

DJ,

I found a shop with the Hunter GSP9700 balancer. Gene, the owner of the shop, was willing to listen to my problems and truly cared. I did not know this individual prior to talking on the phone with him a couple of times but I was greeted at his shop like I was an old friend. First, they put each of my tires on the balancer. As I mentioned prior, these are Michelin tires which have about 5,000 miles on them at this point. Two of the tires showed a road force variation of 6 and 8 pounds. I was told that this was good. The other two showed a road force variation of over 25 pounds! He put the two "good" ones on the front and the two "bad" ones on the back. I was told that the tires with excessive road force variation should be replaced but he wished me luck getting the place I bought them from to do it. Hopefully, the place I bought the tires from will take care of me and replace my two defective tires. Anyway, all 4 tires were balanced and then we headed to the alignment rack where we used the spec's listed by you. There is a HUGE difference in the way the vehicle drives. No longer is the Sequoia tossed around the highway by the slightest bit of wind. It was refreshing to find a shop that took care of me and listened to me and they allowed me to be in the shop with the mechanic every step of the way. I'll let everyone know how it goes getting the tires replaced. Even with the defective tires, I again have the smooth ride I was accustomed to due to the precise balancing and I have stability that I've never had due to the alignment.

Stan

[DJ]

When it's good, it's REALLY good!

I have a Tundra and a Sequoia, and several of my tires have about 25 lbs. of force variation. I can't do a lot to compensate for it, because the rims (factory alloy) have very little radial runout. However, both vehicles are very smooth.

Generally, about 25 lbs. is the threshold above which vibration can be felt. That's not a hard-and-fast rule, but it seems to be about right for most vehicles.

[WillsSeq]

Back in December, I purchased a wheel tire package from Tire Rack for my Sequoia. The package consisted of Moda R7s and Michelin Pilot LTX in 285/55-18. The tires from day one exhibited severe vibrations. I had them balanced at 4 different tire shops until I found a shop with a Hunter 9700. The owner personally balanced them himself and said that 3 of the 4 tires were "condemned" (out of round?) by the machine! Doing the best job he could and taking over 2 hours to do the balancing did not cure the problem. The tires were just plain impossible to balance. Fortunately Tire Rack agreed to accept return of the entire package. Now 3 months later, I have Moda R7s and Pirelli Scorpion Zero in 295/45-20 and the ride is as smooth as my stock tires were! I think that when you get into tires this size, it's all luck to get a tire that will balance perfectly.

[DJ]

I think you are correct. It's well known that, the lower the profile of the tire, the more likely you are to have variations in stiffness of the sidewalls, and therefore more radial force variation. I'm MUCH more interested in performance than appearance, and that's why I continue with the stock 265/70R16 size.

[doctormdds]

Finally, I am finished with my new tire ordeal. I had my two "defective" tires replaced. The tire dealer gave me no problem whatsoever replacing them at no charge. I took the tires elsewhere and had them balanced on the GSP9700. I've been dealing with this for about two months now and I'm glad it's finally over. Hopefully, I won't have to buy new tires for another 60,000 or so miles.

Stan

[KLS]

How much should I expect to pay for a balance job with the GSP9700?

Ken

[Leathernuts]

My steering wheel shimmys side to side around the 50's. I've had them balanced twice. I have goodyear mt/r 305/70-16 on the IS wheels. Is this normal for mud tires? Is it the wheels? Help!

[doctormdds]

KLS,

I paid $7.50 a tire - the same most shops in our area charge for balancing on a lesser machine. By the way, you can find out which shops own a GSP9700 by looking at the Hunter web site: http://www.gsp9700.com/pub/search/findgsp9700.cfm

If I were you, I'd simply find a reputable shop near you and call and ask their fee. I understand the machine costs about $10,000 so it would be fair for them to charge more than what is typical. It REALLY made a difference on my Sequoia.

Stan

[TX_Hunter]

This is what finally worked for my Tundra. I had the tires road force balanced on the 9700 with an alloy-2 balance. I still had vibrations so I took it back and they rebalanced it again with the alloy-2 and each tire required a massive amount of weights on them to balance them out. I still had vibrations so I took it back again and told them not to break the bead (spin the tire) and just static balance the tires (requires less weight), and BAM, smooth riding ever since. Hope this helps.

[DJ]

Originally posted by Leathernuts
My steering wheel shimmys side to side around the 50's. I've had them balanced twice. I have goodyear mt/r 305/70-16 on the IS wheels. Is this normal for mud tires? Is it the wheels? Help!

Steering wheel shimmy is easy to cause by misalignment of the wheels, but it's difficult to cause by unbalanced wheels.

[Leathernuts]

DJ,
I had the alignment checked yesterday as a matter of fact and they said it was in "specs". Anyother suggestions?

[DJ]

Originally posted by Leathernuts
DJ,
I had the alignment checked yesterday as a matter of fact and they said it was in "specs". Anyother suggestions?

Yup -- Toyota's "specs" are "wrong". Your truck could be aligned "in spec" and still be aligned "wrong".

The problem is caster. The alignment can be within the ranges allowed by Toyota with 1/2 degree of caster and 10 degrees of SAI (steering axis inclination). This is a recipe for steering instability and oscillation. To prove it, during September of 2000 I aligned my own Tundra to these values, with camber and total toe dead on spec, and it vibrated. It vibrated worse during braking, also. I then set it to "my" recommended specs and it has been stable as a rock ever since. The ONLY change was alignment of caster.

We've spent a year and a half discussing the subject on this forum -- it's a shame the archives are gone. LOTS of people have cured their vibrations simply by getting their trucks aligned properly.

The "spec" for caster on my truck is 1.27 +/- 0.75 degrees. It could be "in spec" with as little as 0.52 degrees or as much as 2.02 degrees. There is an ENORMOUS difference in steering stability between the two. So, I've recommended that the vehicle be aligned to "specs" which are within the ranges allowed by Toyota (so Toyota has NO grounds for complaint and I have NO liability) such that caster is as high as possible.

My recommended specs are:

camber: +0.25 degrees
caster: +2.00 degrees
total toe: +0.08 degrees

To get this right, you'll have to find an alignment guy who will work with you. He needs to know several things:

1) ... the specs I've recommended above
2) ... that these specs are within the ranges allowed by Toyota
3) ... that you want him to NAIL these specs

You're paying for it -- make damned sure he gets it right.

The Tundra is one of the easiest vehicles to align I've ever aligned, IF AND ONLY IF it is done using a Hunter model 211, 311, 411, or 611 alignment console. These consoles have a "CAMM" display that understands this suspension type and makes it trivially easy to get the adjustments right the first time.