5th Wheel Towing

[mustang67408]

Ray is 100% right. Check out my photo album and look at what happened to the TUNDRA with a cab over camper.
With the camper EMPTY is weighed 1500lbs or so. (extremly to much over the axle) as Ray stated.
Then with his gear and his wifes gear, and supplies, refrigerator,ect...
even the ole empty water tank till i get there. The frame still cracked!!!!BOTH SIDES(cracked frame) He had overload springs (7 in the pack) and it still was on the bump stops.
I would take into consideration what Ray has said very seriously. We're talking about you and your families life, and maybe someone elses if you might happen to wreck. (wind can be very nasty, as well as black ice (been there done that))
After seeing the frame cracked and broken all the way thru, I am very glad I bought the 18' WILDERNESS. I feel safe and assured that my family is safer, than If I had bought the 25' we were originally looking at. There is alot more room/margin for ERROR.
AS RAY SAID:

If you want to pull 8000 to 9000 lb trailers, you need 3/4 ton truck that's designed for that kind of load...like a Ford F250 or GM/Chevy/Dodge 2500 series. Tundras were never designed for that kind of loading.

Take care and be SAFE

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by mustang67408

Ray is 100% right. Check out my photo album and look at what happened to the TUNDRA with a cab over camper.
With the camper EMPTY is weighed 1500lbs or so. (extremly to much over the axle) as Ray stated.
Then with his gear and his wifes gear, and supplies, refrigerator,ect...
even the ole empty water tank till i get there. The frame still cracked!!!!BOTH SIDES(cracked frame) He had overload springs (7 in the pack) and it still was on the bump stops.
I would take into consideration what Ray has said very seriously. We're talking about you and your families life, and maybe someone elses if you might happen to wreck. (wind can be very nasty, as well as black ice (been there done that))
After seeing the frame cracked and broken all the way thru, I am very glad I bought the 18' WILDERNESS. I feel safe and assured that my family is safer, than If I had bought the 25' we were originally looking at. There is alot more room/margin for ERROR.
AS RAY SAID:
Take care and be SAFE

The frame on both sides cracked all the way through!!!! Those pictures are incredible...the only thing holding that truck together behind the rear wheels was the sheet metal of the bed.

Hmmmm...doing some quick calculation...an 1500 (empty) cabover camper when loaded would weigh around 2500 lbs. However because it is a cabover...and the camper rests on the entirety of the bed, about 40% of that weight would be on the front axle, the other 60% on the back axle. 60% of 2500 is 1500 lbs on the rear axle/rear frame. That's 100 lbs less than the hitch load of an 8000 lb 5th Wheel.

Anyone still doubting that even a 500 lb overload on the rear can break the frame??

[04DSGTUNDRA]

Ray, you make a very good point. I never considered frame damage, and the axle's.... I was actually considering doing airbag suspension in the rear to help but your right it is overloading the truck way too much. As for the fleetwood, surprisingly the owner before me use to tow it with a extra cab 2001 1500 chevy silverado 2wd with the 4.8 vortec in it (ouch!). I am going to look for a smaller one, I've also been considering getting a 23 foot pull trailer (dry wieght 4900lbs) which is probably what I will end up getting, our 4-runner seems to have more power (4.7vvti iforce in it with the 5-speed) and I'm sure that will pull the 23' footer alot better then the tundra. I dont really want to trade this truck in for a powerstroke or duramax, and for what 3-4 trips a year??? thanks again!

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by 04DSGTUNDRA

Ray, you make a very good point. I never considered frame damage, and the axle's.... I was actually considering doing airbag suspension in the rear to help but your right it is overloading the truck way too much.

I'm glad I broadened your thinking about what it takes to safely tow a heavy trailer. Way too many people erroneously assume that a Tundra is a true full size 1/2 ton truck, completely comparable in strength and capability to Ford 150s and Chevy/GM/Dodge 1500 series trucks, and all it needs to handle heavy loads (hauling or towing) is a little rear suspension stiffening. That is simply not the case...as many people have unhappily come to find out (read what member Mike Donofrio has to say), a Tundra is really a V8 powered T-100 or even Tacoma when it comes to towing or hauling. For towing/hauling, the Tundra is equivalent to a mid-size pickup like the Dodge Dakota and in fact the Dak was the truck I was comparing Tundras against when I bought my Tundra. If you wouldn't tow/haul something with a Dakota, don't try it with a Tundra.

As for the fleetwood, surprisingly the owner before me use to tow it with a extra cab 2001 1500 chevy silverado 2wd with the 4.8 vortec in it (ouch!).

4.8 Vortec or not, that Chevy 1500 is actually a far better tow vehicle for a 25 foot Fleetwood than your Tundra will ever be. First, the Chevy has a stronger frame, stronger axles, and stronger suspension which allowed Chevy to give it a GCWR of 13,000 lbs (1200 lbs more than any Tundra). Second, the Chevy has a 143 inch wheelbase (15 inches longer than your Tundra) and that alone makes a huge difference in controlling a 25 foot trailer. Engine power is only a part of the equation for towing capabilty and quite frankly is the smallest part of the equation when it comes to safe towing capability.

I am going to look for a smaller one, I've also been considering getting a 23 foot pull trailer (dry wieght 4900lbs) which is probably what I will end up getting, our 4-runner seems to have more power (4.7vvti iforce in it with the 5-speed) and I'm sure that will pull the 23' footer alot better then the tundra. I dont really want to trade this truck in for a powerstroke or duramax, and for what 3-4 trips a year??? thanks again!

Regardless of whether the 4Runner has more power than your Tundra, don't even think about trying to pull even a 23 foot Toy Hauler with it. The biggest problem is the 4Runner simply doesn't have enough wheelbase to handle a 23 foot trailer in general and it certainly doesn't have enough wheelbase to handle a Toy Hauler where the loading is all over the place. Based on statistics from thousands of RV accidents resulting from sway/loss of control, the wheelbase rule for travel trailers is "For each foot of trailer over 20 feet, 4 inches of tow vehicle wheelbase is needed over a baseline of 110 inches." Your '03 4Runner has a wheelbase of 109 something inches...that means under no circumstances should you try towing anything over 20 feet and really nothing over 19 feet with that SUV.

Furthermore, as best I could determine, the '03 4Runner has only a 10,500 lb GCWR (1300 lbs less than your Tundra) and a 5000 lb maximum tow rating. Since tow ratings are determined by subtracting the weight of an empty, no fuel, no passengers, no cargo, one driver only vehicle from the GCWR you have to subtract all those numbers to get a realistic tow rating. IOW, you'll be over the GCWR of a 4Runner with a 4000 lb (loaded weight) trailer. A 4900 lb (empty) Toy Hauler is completely out of the question.

The bottom line is just doesn't matter that your 4Runner has the power to pull a 23 foot trailer better than your Tundra because the 4Runner is simply not long enough to control that long a trailer and it is simply not heavy duty enough in construction to handle the weight.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure that a Tundra can safely handle even a 23 foot Toy Hauler. The problem with Toy Haulers is the variablity of the center of gravity of the load. In order to make them controllable when loaded with "toys" (the weight of which is in the garage area at the rear of the trailer), the manufacturers put all the heavy tankage (water, grey water, propane) and appliances in the front. And since Toy Haulers are supposed to be refueling/maintenance stations, there's usually also a gasoline tank and storage for parts and tools, which adds even more weight near the tonque. Finally, because "toys" are a heckuva lot heavier than normal food/clothing/camping gear, the weight differences between an empty and loaded Toy Hauler are huge...as much as 3000 lbs. Using a 4900 lb empty trailer, that means that when you don't have a full load of toys (around 1500 lbs) in the back of the trailer and do have the tanks filled for a run into the desert, you will have tongue weights in the 1200 to 1500 lb range (with a total weight of around 6000 lbs). Even with a weight distributing hitch, the highest allowable tongue weight is 1100 lbs...anything more and you're right back into the broken frame/rear axle situation.

Now when you do load all the toys and tanks, the tongue weight goes down to a more manageable 700 to 800 lbs but the total weight goes up around 7500 lbs and you'll like be over the truck's GCWR. But if you decide to travel with empty water and fuel tanks on the trailer to stay under the GCWR, then your tongue weight will drop to around 500 lbs and that's too light (minimum is 10% of total weight) and you will have huge problems controlling sway with just a 128 inch wheelbase Tundra because the trailer's center of gravity is too far rearward.

I personally would never attempt to tow any Toy Hauler over 20 feet in length (empty weight under 4000 lbs) with my Tundra and even then I'd measure the trailer's tongue weight before every trip to make sure that it was not too low (sway likely) or too high (overload the truck). A tongue weight scale can be bought to do this or you can rig up a way to use a bathroom scale.

I'm empathetic to your desire to take your toys out to play (I own two motorcycles myself) but you've got to stop thinking primarily in terms of engine power when it comes to determining what your truck can tow. Structural considerations, wheelbase, total weight, and how the trailer is loaded are far, far more important things to consider than whether you've got enough ponies under the hood.

[2000LtdKen]

Originally Posted by 04DSGTUNDRA

Hey everyone, I'm strongly considering getting a new Toy Hauler Trailer. I'm really impressed with the Weekend Warrior Super Lite SL2805. The only problem is I don't know if my Tundra will pull it here are some specs on the trailer, its a 28' 5th Wheel, dry wieght is 5400lbs not including the water (it has a 100gallon water tank), gas (18 gallon pump station), or bikes (it can carry 4 to 5 quads). They say 5th wheel towing is alot easier on the truck, and you can carry 10% more then pull trailers. When we do use it I do not plan to EVER drive with the water or gas tanks full (i'll fill up as close to the destination as possible), and don't plan to carry more then 3 bikes at a time. I've pulled a 25' Fleetwood RV pull toy hauler, dry wieght is 6900lbs, with bikes and luggage and passengers it was around 8200lbs, and my truck pulled it pretty good. Anyone pull a 5th wheel??? Any advice would be appreciated. thanks-

oh yeah, i have a 04' Access cab Limited 2WD TRD Tundra.

04DSGTUNDRA,

I have a Weekend Warrior FK2100 Superlight that tows off the hitch. Dry weight is about #4000, loaded it is around #6500. I only have 60 gallons of fresh water and the 18 gallon fuel station. I started with a weight distribution hitch and it towed ok. Later I added air bags and that firmed up the rear end really well during towing. Made the truck more stable. I don't try to lift the rear up too much, just level so that the brake proportioning valve still works good for the rear brakes. I would have to say that the truck accelerates, climbs, turns and stops well when trailering but I do feel I am at the top end of what should be towed with this truck. I would also say that I probably would not tow the 5th wheel you are looking at as it is too much for the truck.

Hope this helps.

Ken

[TwinStop]

Not To hijack but just an observation on load capacity. We have always been a Ford family (this is before toyota was an option I'm old) my grand parents had a 1966 ford 1/2 ton and alway loaded to the max with a mid size camper pulling probably 15 foot older than the hills camp trailer full of everything a family of 10 could use in a week plus several kids in the camper and truck full of adults. When we poured the patio everyone lined their pickups with plastic and went to the local cement place and filled the beds until they sat on the axle, I even loaded a old Ford with wet freshly cut wood past the cab with side rails ( had to be real careful coming out of the hills that time ) and in a late 60's or early 70's can't remember which Hilux I had the bed loaded past the cab with wet sand (had to be on the brakes when turning ) none had any damage done over the years. Kinda scary especially after seeing the frame broke on that tundra.

[LoveMyTundra]

Is anyone towing a travel trailer with the Tundra DC, or possibly a 5th wheel? I have a 05 Tundra DC with a towing package and factory hitch and have towed a 20ft older 1973 Road Ranger trailer and it does fine, but I would really like to someday purchase a 5th wheel. Is that even possible with the Tundra?

[wallygator24]

I think it depends on the size of the fifth wheel that you will be towing. I have seen some tundra owners towing fith wheels with their tundras all the way from the yukon territories to arizona with no problems. I've noticed that their tundras pull the fifth wheels pretty good. I think that i would wait for the bigger engine option before I went and purchased a fith wheel to tow though. I tow a twenty one foot jet sled with mine and have no problems with it, other then my gas mileage goes way down.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by LoveMyTundra

Is anyone towing a travel trailer with the Tundra DC, or possibly a 5th wheel? I have a 05 Tundra DC with a towing package and factory hitch and have towed a 20ft older 1973 Road Ranger trailer and it does fine, but I would really like to someday purchase a 5th wheel. Is that even possible with the Tundra?

There are two pretty big challenges with towing a 5th wheel behind a Tundra and particularly behind a DC. Toyota did a very dirty trick on you DC owners by comparison to we AC Tundra owners...they gave you the ability to comfortably carry hundreds of pounds of additional passengers/cargo in the larger backseat and deeper bed...and at the same time removed about 600 lbs of load capacity because the truck itself is much heavier but rides on the same frame, suspension, and axle.

First is the pin or hitch weight issue. Tundras do not have heavy duty frames, rear suspensions, or rear axles. The Gross Axle Weight Rear is a pretty light 3760 lbs for all models, including the rather heavy DC. An empty DC is going to have about 2700 to 2900 lbs on the rear axle which doesn't leave you much leftover for either cargo or trailer pin weight. Let's assume the best case...your are carrying zero passengers and zero cargo in the back seat and the bed so your available load capacity can be solely devoted to the trailer. 5th Wheel hitches aren't light either...lets assume 150 lbs for a standard hitch and 250 lbs for a sliding hitch (see below). That will leave you with about 700 to 800 lbs for the trailer's hitch/pin weight.

By comparison to standard travel trailers which put about 10% of their total weight on the hitch, a 5th Wheel trailer puts about 20% on the hitch pin. Working backwards from a maximum 800 lb pin weight, that means the LOADED trailer can't weigh more than about 4000 lbs. Since the typical load of manufacturer and dealer accessories/cargo/propane/water/food in a travel trailer is around 700 to 1000 lbs, the heaviest "dry weight" 5th Wheel trailer you could safely pull without overloading your Tundra is about 3000 to 3300 lbs. Good luck finding ANY 5th Wheel trailer that has a dry weight under about 4000 lbs, much less one that has a dry weight around 3000 lbs.

And remember, these are best case calculations for trailer weight. Since a DC Tundra has such a spacious backseat, it's typically going to be filled with passengers and/or cargo. Let's assume 500 lbs of load in the back, about 70% of which will wind up on the rear axle. Now your available load capacity after the hitch is in the bed is only about 350 to 450 lbs and the heaviest LOADED 5th Wheel trailer you could handle is a miniscule 1750 to 1900 lbs. The thing would have to be made out of balsa wood.

And just in case you're thinking that Toyota's weight limits are very conservative and you could probably get away with putting another 500 or 1000 lbs on that rear axle and rear frame, take a real long look at the pictures like this one of a cracked Tundra frame that are in TS member Mustang67408's (who is a Toyota Master Tech) Photo Gallery. The idiot who owned the Tundra with the cracked frame (both passenger and driver side frames were cracked BTW) achieved this by simply putting a 1000 lb too-heavy camper in his truck's bed. And we've had other reports of people who actually snapped their rear axle by towing a too-heavy toy-hauler trailer over rough ground. IOW, you better consider Toyota's weight restrictions to be very realistic.

The other problem with towing a 5th Wheel is the Tundra's bed is simply too short (only 6.5 feet in length). A typical 5th Wheel is 8 feet wide. With the hitch pivot point roughly midway in the bed, the distance from the pivot to the back of the cab is less than the distance from the pivot to the side of the trailer. When making a very sharp turn (like pulling out of a gas station or backing into a campsite), sooner or later the corner of the trailer will collide with the corner of the cab and do much damage to both cab and trailer (and to whoever's head is inside that corner of the cab).

There are sliding hitches (both manual and automatic) that move the hitch pin rearward during turns...and you can put a hitch pin extender on some (but not many) 5th Wheel trailers. The sliding hitches are troublesome and expensive (the automatic ones run around $2000) ...and they're heavy (and, as noted above, a DC Tundra has no spare weight handling capacity). The hitch pin extenders do work...but only on the few trailers that can accept one.

The bottom line is a DC Tundra is simply not a suitable tow vehicle for a 5th Wheel trailer...its frame, suspension, and axle are just too light duty to handle the pin weights of even "lightweight" 5th Wheel trailers and the bed is too short to safely make any sharp turn without using a pin box extenders or a sliding hitch.

As for towing a standard travel trailer with DC Tundra, the situation is better but not a lot better. Here are some numbers for your DC:

• Gross Combined Weight Rating...the most a combination of loaded truck and loaded trailer can weigh: 11,800 lbs (exactly the same as the lighter AC tundra)
• Gross Vehicle Weight Rating...the most the loaded truck itself can weigh: 6600 lbs (300 lbs more than the AC Tundra)
• EMPTY typical truck with full gas tank but no passengers and no cargo is about 5100 lbs (2WD) and 5500 lbs (4WD).
• Typical loaded truck (4 passengers averaging 160 lbs) plus 300 lbs cargo: about 6000 lbs 2WD and 6400 lbs 4WD. Note that a 4WD Tundra will be quite close to its GVWR with only a typical load of passengers and cargo. Stuff the backseat with 3 heavy guys and fill the bed and you will be substantially over the GVWR!
• Actual available tow capacity with a typically loaded truck (subtract actual truck weights from the GCWR) : 5800 lbs 2WD and 5300 lbs for a 4WD. Note this the maxiumum weight of the LOADED trailer.
• Maxiumum allowable "dry weight" of a standard travel trailer: ~5000 lbs for 2WD and ~4600 lbs for a 4WD. IOW, your current 20 foot trailer is just about as heavy a unit as you should be pulling with a DC if you carry a typical load of passengers and cargo in the truck.
  
  NOTE: Maximum weights are predicated on use of a Weight Distributing Hitch with sufficient spring bar strength (properly set) such that half the tongue weight is being distributed to the truck's front suspension. If a WDH is not used, or bars aren't strong enough, or the bars are not set tight enough, even a 5000 lb loaded trailer could be causing major overload of the rear suspension, axle, and frame with just a typical load of passengers and cargo in the truck.

The bottom line is a DC Tundra has very limited towing capabilities with even standard trailers and stringent weight control of the truck and trailer is imperative.

[sprj8008]

I think Ray's taking this a little too far with some generalizations. When we speak of 5th wheels we're not talking, necessarily of an 8600 lb dry 28 foot monster with a slide and 14' height.

My trailer is 19.5' long, 8' wide and 4400lbs wet. The pin on the trailer is about a foot ahead of the front surface of the trailer. I tow with the pin over the axle and can't hit the truck on the trailer until I get way around. Same as if it was on the hitch.

In comparison of hitch weight and frame stress the 1000 lbs on the hitch will cause twice the stress on the frame that 1000 lbs over the axle will. Additionally, one needs to consider the cantilever effect of the trailer tongue weight being applied 3' behind the axle which will take weight from the front tires. 500 lbs of true trailer tongue weight will have a larger effect on the axle than simply the 500 lbs.

If you were to take a 1500 lbs camper with the centre of gravity one foot behind the axle, it will have the same effect on the frame as a 500lbs tongue load applied at the hitch 3' behind the axle. I think it's safe to say that wither the camper was significantly over 1500 lbs and/or exposed to some serviously rough terrain.

I'm not ready to condemn the 5th wheel and tundra combination until someone has some out-of-spec calculations to present. The arguements that you might hit the cab on the trailer or crack the frame if you jump the truck and trailer at over 50mph don't apply. That comment is akin to "you best not drive because you might get stupid suddenly and drive into a bridge abutment."

Jason

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by sprj8008

I think Ray's taking this a little too far with some generalizations. When we speak of 5th wheels we're not talking, necessarily of an 8600 lb dry 28 foot monster with a slide and 14' height.

My trailer is 19.5' long, 8' wide and 4400lbs wet. The pin on the trailer is about a foot ahead of the front surface of the trailer. I tow with the pin over the axle and can't hit the truck on the trailer until I get way around. Same as if it was on the hitch.

In comparison of hitch weight and frame stress the 1000 lbs on the hitch will cause twice the stress on the frame that 1000 lbs over the axle will. Additionally, one needs to consider the cantilever effect of the trailer tongue weight being applied 3' behind the axle which will take weight from the front tires. 500 lbs of true trailer tongue weight will have a larger effect on the axle than simply the 500 lbs.

If you were to take a 1500 lbs camper with the centre of gravity one foot behind the axle, it will have the same effect on the frame as a 500lbs tongue load applied at the hitch 3' behind the axle. I think it's safe to say that wither the camper was significantly over 1500 lbs and/or exposed to some serviously rough terrain.

Your arguments presume non use of a properly adjusted weight distributing hitch. Certainly, without a WDH, the load on the rear frame and rear suspension is substantially larger than just the tongue weight itself because of unweighting of the front suspension. However, with a properly adjusted WDH, only a third of the tongue weight is on the rear suspension, a third is added to the front suspension, and a third is distributed back to the trailer's suspension. So, not only is the tongue weight only 10% of the trailer weight but the cantilevering downforce put on the truck's rear suspension is a mere 3.3% of the trailer weight. Being able to transfer 2/3 of the trailer's tongue weight off of the rear suspension and 1/3 off the rear frame is a huge advantage of using a WDH. IOW, with a proper WDH, a trailer with a 1000 lb tongue weight only puts 330 lbs of weight on the rear suspension and 660 lbs on the rear frame.

As for the camper, yes it was significantly (about 1000 lbs) over the 1500 lb empty weight.

I'm not ready to condemn the 5th wheel and tundra combination until someone has some out-of-spec calculations to present. The arguements that you might hit the cab on the trailer or crack the frame if you jump the truck and trailer at over 50mph don't apply. That comment is akin to "you best not drive because you might get stupid suddenly and drive into a bridge abutment."

Jason

For those (like you) who have Access Cab Tundras, 5th Wheel towing is indeed feasible with a light enough 5th Wheel (and 4400 lbs wet is light enough) that has a proper pin location. However, my post addressed the weight issues of 5th Wheel towing with a Double Cab Tundra...a truck that by itself weighs about 600 lbs more than an Access Cab and which nearly begs to be loaded with a lot more in-cab passenger and cargo weight than most people would ever consider stuffing into the Access Cab's miniscule back seat area. By the time you add in that extra 1000 to 1200 lbs of load (most of which is going onto the rear suspension), the Double Cab's available load capacity is much, much lower than your Access Cab's and even a 4400 lb wet weight trailer is too heavy if the back seat is fully used.

I stand by my original assessment and strongly disagree that I've taken the generalizations too far at all...if anything I didn't take them far enough and may have overestimated a loaded Double Cab's ability to tow any trailer.

[cdwaldron]

I tow a small, 1997 24' Shadow Cruiser tandem axle 5th wheel with my '04 AC 2wd Tundra. I certainly know the Cruiser is behind me but it tows very respectably. I use a Pullrite Super glide (expensive as H*ll) hitch that works flawlessly. My GCVW is well within limits as are the individual axle weights. You just have to do your home work before you spend your money. Keep on camping!

[notundrayet]

I have an 03 toyota tundra sr5 4x4 access cab that comes with the v8. It came with the tow pkg. I think the tow rating is listed as 6900 lbs.

The folding trailer I'm interested in is the 05 Starcraft 3606. It's listed GVWR is 3750 lbs and GVW is 2900 lbs. Shows a dry hitch weight of 385 lbs.

In the real world, what does all this mean? I'm assuming my truck will handle the trailer weight. Will a WDH and sway controller be required as well? I may be mistaken, but I thought I've heard certain trailer manufactuers discourage the use of WDH for some reason. Will the above weights cause too much sag on the rear of the truck?

Since I have the tow package, what is required to install a prodigy brake conroller?

Thanks for any help as this towing stuff is all new to me.

[snake]

I'm gonna ask the same question regarding my 04 Tundra DC over at the Popup Exchange. www.popupexplorer.com How do you like the 3606? That is the model we are looking at!
Snake
04 Toy Tundra DC

[notundrayet]

Snake,

Yes, in fact someone on PUX directed me here to get more in depths answers on Tundra towing.

As far the 3606 goes, I don't have one. It's the unit that I'm considering and would like to have