5th Wheel Towing

[mrbreez]

What is the easiest way to determind which gear ratio is on this truck? I am looking at 5th wheel campers & was asked which ratio was on the truck to determind what size camper to go with.
mrbreez

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by mrbreez

What is the easiest way to determind which gear ratio is on this truck? I am looking at 5th wheel campers & was asked which ratio was on the truck to determind what size camper to go with.
mrbreez

A 2002 LTD with the V8 has 3.91 gears. However, the axle ratio is the least of your concerns when determining what size 5th wheel trailer you can pull with a Tundra. There are two critical issues when considering pulling a 5th wheel trailer with a Tundra.

Issue 1: Weight. A 5th wheel trailer puts about 20% of its total weight on the hitch. The hitch is mounted just ahead of the truck's rear axle therefore nearly all the hitch weight will be carried by the rear axle. Tundras have very light duty rear axles for a half ton truck...the Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) for the rear axle is only 3760 lbs. I have had my truck (a lighter SR5) weighed...with only me in the cab (190 lbs), a full tank of gas, and a light load of cargo (~250 lbs), the weight on my rear axle was 2700 lbs. Considering that a "slider" 5th wheel hitch (see Issue 2) will weigh around 300 lbs, you should assume that your truck will have around 2700 to 3000 lbs on the rear axle before you hook up the trailer. That means that the most hitch weight you can handle is 1000 lbs and 700 lbs is more realistic.

Those hitch weights translate into 5th wheels that have maximum loaded weights between 3500 and 5000 lbs. All RV manufacturers only publish the "empty" weights for their trailers...and those empty weights do not include any factory or dealer options, nor do they include the weights of any water/propane/food/clothing/camping gear you will be putting into the trailer. Typically, those options (like AC, even the spare tire is usually an option) and your water/propane/food/gear will together weigh around 800 to 1000 lbs. Lets assume you pack/load very lightly and use 800 lbs. That means you should not buy any 5th wheel with an "empty" or "published" weight that is greater than 4200 lbs and you really shouldn't buy one that is over 2700 lbs. Good luck finding a 2700 lb empty weight 5th wheel.

Issue 2: Trailer/cab clearance when cornering. A typical 5th wheel is 8 feet wide. That means the side of the trailer is 48 inches (4 feet) from the center of the hitch pin. Your truck has a very short bed...with the center of hitch mounted 4 to 5 inches ahead of the axle for optimum load carrying, there's typically only 25 inches between the back of the cab and the center of the hitch. The hitch pins on nearly all 5th wheels are placed somewhat behind the front of the trailer. Therefore, as you turn that difference between 48 inches and 25 inches means that at some cornering angle the front of the trailer is going to collide with the rear corner of the cab. It usually happens during very sharp turns in/out of camping sites but can occur even when going in/out of gas stations. It's inevitable and will cause major damage to both the front of the trailer and the truck cab when it happens.

There is a solution to this problem of towing 5th wheel trailers with short box pickups and it's a known as "slider" hitch. There are two kinds...manual and automatic. Both allow the hitch to slide rearward about 2 feet so the front of the trailer will clear the cab on a sharp turn. The manual version requires that you anticipate when there will be a problem, then get out to pull a lever, then pull the truck ahead so the hitch will slide back, then perform the turn, then pull the lever again and back the truck up so the hitch moves back where its supposed to be. Forget to do all this...or fail to recognize when you need to...and BAM, a crunched trailer and crunched truck. Or you can spend about $2100 to buy this Pullrite "Superglide 12K" Automatic hitch. Yeah, pricey and just about fills the truck's bed but no worries about trailer/cab crunches and it will even handle a sudden jacknifing during emergency braking. AFAIK, only Pullrite makes an automatic slider hitch.

The bottom line is that it will be very hard to find a light enough 5th wheel to stay within the weight limits of your Tundra, and even if you do, you will still have to spend a big chunk of cash to buy a slider hitch to avoid cab/trailer crunches. To be honest, you'd be much better off looking at conventional travel trailers (where the empty weights can be up to 5500 lbs) in conjunction with a top-notch trapezoidal or cam action (not friction) anti-sway weight distributing hitch like a Hensley.

[mrbreez]

RockyMtnRay,
Good point! I have heard pulling a 5th wheel is safer & easier to travel with. I have looked @ a few lite travel trailers to but I haven't seen to many trailers weighing 2700 lb empty weight either execpt for a pop up. The manual says that the Tundra can tow up to 7200 lbs so I was thinking of getting a trailer around 5500 to 6000 lbs & allowing 1000 lbs for stuff that I might take including, fuel, food, fishing equipment, and other stuff. Most of these lite campers are around weighing 4800 to 6000 lbs.
Thanks for your advice & I guess I better stick with a travel trailer!
mrbreez

[mustang67408]

I was told by a TOYOTA OFFICIAL TYPE PERSON that we SHOULD NOT PULL A 5TH WHEEL AT ALL.(PERIOD END OF STORY)For the exact reasons Ray described.
So i just got a 18' Fleetwood (WILDERNESS) Travel Trailer.
3950lbs empty. It pulls like a dream, and stops like 1 too.We triy to pack light, I have not had a chance to have it weighed. But I feel safe in it. There is only 3 in my family so it is just the right size for us.We had a 24' class C, this is bigger and roomier inside.
TS member KLS has a 21' BIGFOOT trailer, that he just loves, Ya might want to chat with him.
And whatever you do---> GET THE McKESH MIRRORS
Dont be cheap, like i was. The first set of mirrors i bought sucked. I now have the McKesh, WOW! what a difference

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by mrbreez

RockyMtnRay,
Good point! I have heard pulling a 5th wheel is safer & easier to travel with. I have looked @ a few lite travel trailers to but I haven't seen to many trailers weighing 2700 lb empty weight either execpt for a pop up. The manual says that the Tundra can tow up to 7200 lbs so I was thinking of getting a trailer around 5500 to 6000 lbs & allowing 1000 lbs for stuff that I might take including, fuel, food, fishing equipment, and other stuff. Most of these lite campers are around weighing 4800 to 6000 lbs.
Thanks for your advice & I guess I better stick with a travel trailer!
mrbreez

I'm glad I've conveyed the issues in 5th Wheel towing, but please DON'T use the published tow rating to determine how heavy a trailer you can tow. It's purely a marketing number and useful solely for comparison to other tow vehicles. Published tow ratings are useless, misleading, and very dangerous for trailer buying decisions. Here's why:

As the GAWR-rear was the critical limit for towing a 5th Wheel, the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) is usually the critical limit for towing conventional travel trailers. The GCWR is exactly what it says...the total combined weight of the loaded truck and the loaded trailer. All V8 Tundras have exactly the same GCWR: 11,800 lbs.

The published tow rating is determined by subtracting the weight of a Tundra base model standard cab configured to be as light as possible...zero options (and I mean zero options including no AC), about a gallon of gas in the tank, only a 150 lb driver (no passengers), and no cargo. The published 7200 lb "tow rating" is calculated by subtracting that weight (only 4600 lbs) from the GCWR. The published tow rating is therefore a completely bogus number because no-one in their right mind is going camping with no gas, no cargo, no options, and no passengers.

Since you have an LTD with oodles of heavy options and probably don't intend to go out camping with an empty gas tank, no cargo and no passengers, a much more realistic number for your truck's loaded-for-camping weight is around 5600 to 6000 lbs. Let's use 5800 lbs as a realistic number. Subtracting 5800 lbs from 11,800 means that your actual tow rating is only 6000 lbs.

Now when you subtract the 800 to 1000 lbs of water/propane/food/clothing/gear you'll be putting in the trailer, that means you should not buy any travel trailer that has over a 5200 to 5500 lb "empty" or "UVW" weight. A trailer that's 6000 lbs empty is just too heavy.

Recommendation: Fill your truck with gas, and the passengers and cargo you'd actually take on a camping trip. Then go get it weighed at a commercial scale...check the Yellow Pages for locations. Once you know exactly how much your loaded truck will weigh (a number that may be a lot higher than you think it will be), subtract that from 11,800 and you will know just how heavy a loaded trailer you can pull. Then subtract 1000 from the loaded trailer weight to get a very safe "empty weight" or UVW. Don't let any trailer salesman convince you that you'll "still be safe with a little bigger trailer"...insist that any trailer you buy is at or below your safe empty weight.

HTH

[KLS]

To add one thing to Ray's excellent postings...

Many folks add some type of helper springs to the rear of their truck when they tow a 5th wheel trailer. It might be an additional leaf in the spring pack, or air bags, or Timbren rubber springs, or a helper leaf like Roadmaster Active Suspension and others. These only level your truck...they do not increase the weight carrying capacity.

I feel that about 90% of GCWR is a prudent maximum towing capacity. The Gross Combined Weight Rating of my Tundra is 11,800#. 90% is about 10,600#. My empty truck weighs about 5200# with me, the Mrs., and the dogs. That leaves about 5400# for the loaded trailer and anything we carry in the bed. The problem I have with towing more weight is merging into busy traffic. That 1st to 2nd shift really puts the truck into a power hole.

You can carry a bit more, but I feel that operating any machinery at 100% of rated capacity increases repair cost and results in more breakdowns.

7200# towing capacity, huh? 11,800 - 7200 = 4600# for the truck. My V-8 4wd truck with just me, one dog, and the Roll-n-Lock bed cover weighs 5020# on a truck scale.


Ken

[sprj8008]

Almost but not quite and it depends.

I'm pulling around a 19.5' 5th wheel. It's got a 4400lb GVWR WET. Pulls great and rides WAY better than my brother in-laws 21' pull-type.

One of my coworkers is pulling a 24' 5th wheel with a slide, maxing out the GCVW. He claims it pulls alright. I haven't travelled with him so I won't comment. I'd also never hook up to his trailer with my truck.

With the SC and a generous right foot I have no trouble maintaining speed limits through the Rocky Mountains between Alberta and BC. I'm an advocate of the tandem axle 5th wheel as an option. Additionally, because of the 5th wheel configuration, I've got only about 12' from the bumper to the wheels of the trailer which allows for excellent manouverability. Beats the travel trailer all to hell when I'm parking and I don't reset the hitch location.

The box of the tundra is interesting. Not only is it short, but compared to domestics, the axle location is far forward. My tow setting puts the pin over the axle as recommended by the hitch maufacturer. I don't have the option of putting the pin ahead of the axle, though this hasn't been an issue. If I was to reset the hitch location, I could park perpendicular to the trailer with ease.

For a small trailer, my 5th wheel is hard to beat.

Jason

[wildhare cowboy]

Hey y'all,
I'm wondering if I can install a gooseneck hitch to my 2000 tundra 4x4 Limited, and if so, what is the towing capacity and where I should purchase?

Wildhare Cowboy

Cowboy up or go home

2000 Tundra Limited 4X4, K&N, bed rails/liner, dueler AT revo

NOTATION: The thread "Tundra towing" has been merged with "5th Wheel Towing" as it pretains to the same subject matter. ---- Possum

[atrdnut]

Originally Posted by wildhare cowboy

Hey y'all,
I'm wondering if I can install a gooseneck hitch to my 2000 tundra 4x4 Limited, and if so, what is the towing capacity and where I should purchase?

Wildhare Cowboy

Cowboy up or go home

2000 Tundra Limited 4X4, K&N, bed rails/liner, dueler AT revo

What's goin' on, Mr. Wildhare? There has been a recent discussion about this. RockyMtnRay has a very informative write-up about 5th-wheel towing in this thread. Have you tried looking for a hitch at Holiday World over on the Katy Freeway (I think near Katy Mills mall)? They might know of a company that can install your hitch. Or try Trailer Wheel and Frame - they have a few places around Houston. I can give you some more places to call later today if you'd like. Take care.

-Austin

[wildhare cowboy]

I will take a look at the thread and follow up with Holiday world.

you rock!

thanks
Wildhare

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by wildhare cowboy

I will take a look at the thread and follow up with Holiday world.

you rock!

thanks
Wildhare

A little followup here, Wildhare. We haven't had any gooseneck trailer questions here in a long time but the weight issues are about the same as for 5th Wheel towing since the gooseneck ball mounts right about the same place as a 5th wheel hitch. One thing you shouldn't have problems with on a gooseneck is trailer/cab clearance.

What are you planning to haul around in that gooseneck? It's going to be very important to not have more than around 800 to 1000 lbs on the hitch when you've got the trailer loaded and that will be very dependent on size/length of the trailer and what kind of load it's carrying and where you're putting it in the trailer.

[stump54]

Originally Posted by RockyMtnRay

A little followup here, Wildhare. We haven't had any gooseneck trailer questions here in a long time but the weight issues are about the same as for 5th Wheel towing since the gooseneck ball mounts right about the same place as a 5th wheel hitch. One thing you shouldn't have problems with on a gooseneck is trailer/cab clearance.

What are you planning to haul around in that gooseneck? It's going to be very important to not have more than around 800 to 1000 lbs on the hitch when you've got the trailer loaded and that will be very dependent on size/length of the trailer and what kind of load it's carrying and where you're putting it in the trailer.

Excuse my ignorance but I thought a 5th wheel, and gooseneck were the same thing. If not, which would you recommend for the combo of an '04, four door, pulling two 1000lb quarterhorses?

Thanks,
Stump

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by stump54

Excuse my ignorance but I thought a 5th wheel, and gooseneck were the same thing. If not, which would you recommend for the combo of an '04, four door, pulling two 1000lb quarterhorses?

Thanks,
Stump

Goosenecks and 5th wheels are similar in terms of loading on the tow vehicle, quite different in layout and hitch details.

The short answer is almost all horse trailers are gooseneck or traditional (hitch point below the truck's bumper) design so you really don't have much choice anyway. For a two horse trailer, you should do fine with either a gooseneck or traditional trailer. I've seen very few 5th wheel designs in that size trailer...the ones I have seen have some kind of living area over the hitch and would probably be too heavy for a DC Tundra anyway.

The long answer is a gooseneck trailer has an extended hitch that attaches to a more or less standard trailer ball that's mounted in about the center of the bed. The gain over a standard trailer is that the weight of the hitch is put more or less over the rear axle of the tow vehicle (not applied several feet behind it with a fulcrum effect on the loading) and the pivot point is also within the wheelbase of the tow vehicle so that sway and other aspects of a conventional trailer are almost eliminated.

A 5th wheel trailer's hitch is in the same general location on the tow vehicle as a gooseneck's ball except it's a pin and plate design pretty much identical to that used by semi-trailers/semi-trucks. A pin/plate can carry a lot more weight on the hitch than a gooseneck's ball can (due to a much large weight bearing surface), hence 5th Wheel travel trailers often have heavy bedrooms and bathrooms located over the hitch area.

Gooseneck hitches are pretty common on cargo/utility/horse trailers but almost unheard of on travel trailers. 5th wheel hitches are very common on travel trailers but pretty rare for other trailer types.

HTH

[04DSGTUNDRA]

Hey everyone, I'm strongly considering getting a new Toy Hauler Trailer. I'm really impressed with the Weekend Warrior Super Lite SL2805. The only problem is I don't know if my Tundra will pull it here are some specs on the trailer, its a 28' 5th Wheel, dry wieght is 5400lbs not including the water (it has a 100gallon water tank), gas (18 gallon pump station), or bikes (it can carry 4 to 5 quads). They say 5th wheel towing is alot easier on the truck, and you can carry 10% more then pull trailers. When we do use it I do not plan to EVER drive with the water or gas tanks full (i'll fill up as close to the destination as possible), and don't plan to carry more then 3 bikes at a time. I've pulled a 25' Fleetwood RV pull toy hauler, dry wieght is 6900lbs, with bikes and luggage and passengers it was around 8200lbs, and my truck pulled it pretty good. Anyone pull a 5th wheel??? Any advice would be appreciated. thanks-

oh yeah, i have a 04' Access cab Limited 2WD TRD Tundra.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by 04DSGTUNDRA

Hey everyone, I'm strongly considering getting a new Toy Hauler Trailer. I'm really impressed with the Weekend Warrior Super Lite SL2805. The only problem is I don't know if my Tundra will pull it here are some specs on the trailer, its a 28' 5th Wheel, dry wieght is 5400lbs not including the water (it has a 100gallon water tank), gas (18 gallon pump station), or bikes (it can carry 4 to 5 quads). They say 5th wheel towing is alot easier on the truck, and you can carry 10% more then pull trailers. When we do use it I do not plan to EVER drive with the water or gas tanks full (i'll fill up as close to the destination as possible), and don't plan to carry more then 3 bikes at a time. I've pulled a 25' Fleetwood RV pull toy hauler, dry wieght is 6900lbs, with bikes and luggage and passengers it was around 8200lbs, and my truck pulled it pretty good. Anyone pull a 5th wheel??? Any advice would be appreciated. thanks-

oh yeah, i have a 04' Access cab Limited 2WD TRD Tundra.

"They" are dead wrong about "5th wheel towing is alot easier on the truck, and you can carry 10% more then pull trailers". This is total and absolute hogwash.

The problem is that 5th wheel trailers put about 20% of their total weight on the hitch versus about 10% with standard trailers. Furthermore, with a good and properly adjusted weight distributing hitch, about a third of the hitch weight of a standard trailer goes on the front axle of the tow vehicle, a third on the rear axle, and a third goes back to the trailer tires. By comparison, all of a 5th wheel's hitch weight will go onto the rear axle of the tow vehicle. If you add bikes, gear, food, 100 gallons (800 lbs) of water (no matter if you are almost at your destination), your 5500 lb trailer is going to weigh around 8000 lbs. 20% of that is 1600 lbs.

Unlike most here, I've actually had my truck weighed (4X4 '03 Access Cab)...with just fuel, driver, and some lightweight stuff in the bed (~200 lbs), the weight on my rear axle was 2700 lbs. The Gross Axle Weight Rating (rear) is a very light 3760 lbs. A proper 5th wheel hitch is going to weigh at least as much as the gear I had in my bed so you have, at most, 1000 lbs to play with for axle loading. Subtracting 1000 from 1600 means you will be at least 600 lbs over the maximum allowed weight for the rear axle.

That's a very serious overload...the springs will be bottomed out and a great deal of stress will be placed on the axle bearings. Tundras do NOT have heavy duty axles...they are nothing more than widened Tacoma axles and the differentials are Tacoma differentials. One good off-road jolt with that much overload and you could easily be looking at a snapped-in-half axle with the wheel up through the top of the wheel well. Because of the major overload you were putting on the truck by towing the Fleetwood, you've very likely already overstressed the steel in the suspension and axle and made it even more likely to catastrophically fail. Overload springs, add-a-leaves, air bags, whatever, may get the frame off the axle but they're not going to solve the underlying problem of a light duty axle that can definitely be snapped by overloading it (one TS member already did while trying to pull a toy hauler with a Tundra).

Another huge problem with using a Tundra to pull a 5th wheel is the short bed on the Access cab. As I discussed in depth earlier in this thread, with the 5th wheel hitch mounted just ahead of the axle, the distance between the pivot point and back of the cab is less than distance between the pivot point and the side of the trailer. All it would take to have an expensive collision between the front of the trailer and the corner of the cab is to make a sharp turn (like getting in/out of a gas station or a campsite). And if you ever happened to get into a jacknife situation during an emergency maneuver while traveling, the trailer would obliterate the corner of the cab...and the head of anyone sitting near that corner. The only way around this is buy one of the automatic sliding hitches that move back whenever you go into a turn. The problem with these is they're expensive (around $2500) and take up the entire bed.

Basically, you really ought to totally and completely forget towing a 5th wheel with a Tundra unless you're willing to go with a very small one (around 2700 lbs empty/5500 lbs loaded) and are willing to invest in a Pullrite sliding hitch.

As for that Fleetwood...8200 lbs is waaaay too much load for this truck. The Gross Combined Weight Rating is 11,800 lbs...that's the maximum you should never exceed for the total of loaded truck and loaded trailer. A 4X2 access cab with normal options, a load of fuel, passengers, and cargo is going to weigh about 5000 lbs. Subtracting 5000 from 11,800 means the heaviest loaded trailer you should have ever pulled is 6800 lbs. Because you were at least 1400 lbs over that I'm confident that you've already severely overstressed the frame and suspension. Just because the truck could move that heavy a trailer down the road doesn't mean that you weren't doing a lot of hidden damage like crystallized steel and microscopic hairline cracks.

If you want to pull 8000 to 9000 lb trailers, you need 3/4 ton truck that's designed for that kind of load...like a Ford F250 or GM/Chevy/Dodge 2500 series. Tundras were never designed for that kind of loading.