Towing Suggestions

[cbchief]

Recently bought a 18' Tahoe Lite Toy Hauler. With my setup (below) it felt like the trailer was towing me. I took the deaver 11 stack springs and 3" block off and put my stock springs and 4" block back on because I was saggin big time. (*Advice* Don't get Deavers if you want to haul anything over 400 lbs or tow anything over 1000lbs. The Deavers have no overload spring*) Anyway, it towed terrible! Once I got going it was ok,, but getting going was a chore. I felt every bump the trailer hit. I figure it's because of the very soft deavers is why it was so "spongy" in the rear end. I have the Prodigy brake controller so stopping wasnt an issue.

So, do you guys have any suggestions to make my towing experience better? I love my truck but my new love (Camping and ATVing) is slowly taking over. I have a good 60 miles of mountains to go through so if this is how she towes...I'm thinking Chevy 3/4-1 ton with Duramax and Allison. SAVE ME!

Oh ya, coming up the 45-50 degree incline of my driveway I had the truck in 1st gear and she shuddered and vibrated like mad. Once I got to the top and let off the gas it stopped. What was this??? GOnna take it to the dealer and check it out. Just ordered the Auto RX that KLS recommended for engine and trans so we'll see how that goes.

Thanks for any advice y'all have.

Don

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by cbchief

Recently bought a 18' Tahoe Lite Toy Hauler. With my setup (below) it felt like the trailer was towing me. I took the deaver 11 stack springs and 3" block off and put my stock springs and 4" block back on because I was saggin big time. (*Advice* Don't get Deavers if you want to haul anything over 400 lbs or tow anything over 1000lbs. The Deavers have no overload spring*) Anyway, it towed terrible! Once I got going it was ok,, but getting going was a chore. I felt every bump the trailer hit. I figure it's because of the very soft deavers is why it was so "spongy" in the rear end. I have the Prodigy brake controller so stopping wasnt an issue.

Toy Haulers are nasty to tow...depending on how you load them they can have extremely high tongue weights. It's a really, really, really big mistake to try to handle that kind of trailer tongue weight with any kind of overload springs. The problem is 3 fold...first of all the tongue weight (probably 900 lbs or more) is all on the rear suspension. Second, the tongue weight is being applied about 4 feet behind the axle so it levers (like a teeter-totter) the front of the truck up...probably is taking 300 or more lbs off the front suspension. That unweighting is part of the reason the trailer is pushing the truck around...you don't have enough steering control. Finally the weight that's coming off the front suspension is being transferred back to the rear suspension...so you're putting about 1200 or more lbs on the rear springs and that's just about enough to bottom them out on every bump.

The smart approach is to use a weight distributing hitch (I'd suggest one with at least 1000 lb spring bars and 1200 lb bars would not be overkill). A properly adjusted WDH will distribute about a third of that 900 lb tongue weight to the truck's rear suspension, a third to the front suspension and the remaining third back to the trailer tires. The net is your truck's rear suspension will only get around 300 lbs put on it (instead of 1200 lbs...this is a huge improvement); and the front gets loaded with an extra 300 lbs (instead of being unweighted by 300...the 600 lb difference will dramatically improve the steering and and front braking effectiveness).

Bottom line is the truck will squat equally front/rear with a WDH (instead of looking like it's staggering with its nose in the air)...and the amount of squat isn't that much (300 lbs on the rear will barely cause any drop in the rear suspension). Furthermore, because WDH are designed to work with sway control devices...friction or cam...you get the added benefit of being able to really control any trailer sway and that's a huge improvement in towing safety.

Yeah, a WDH costs around $400 to $600 and takes a few more minutes to hook up than a standard drop hitch (and you don't get any bragging rights about how "tough" your rear suspension is) but the improvement in towing is dramatic.

So, do you guys have any suggestions to make my towing experience better? I love my truck but my new love (Camping and ATVing) is slowly taking over. I have a good 60 miles of mountains to go through so if this is how she towes...I'm thinking Chevy 3/4-1 ton with Duramax and Allison. SAVE ME!

A $400 WDH is a heckuva lot cheaper than a $45000 Chevy 2500/3500 with Duramax...and you get to keep your Tundra and you don't have the hassles of diesels. As long as the total weight of your rig doesn't exceed the Tundra's GCWR (11,800 lbs), you should have sufficient power/strength for towing at low elevations (towing in high altitudes (over 6000 feet) is another issue). But the simple addition of a good WDH (with sway control) is going to make your towing experience sooo much more pleasant.

Oh ya, coming up the 45-50 degree incline of my driveway I had the truck in 1st gear and she shuddered and vibrated like mad. Once I got to the top and let off the gas it stopped. What was this??? GOnna take it to the dealer and check it out. Just ordered the Auto RX that KLS recommended for engine and trans so we'll see how that goes.

Yikes. A 45 degree slope is incredibly steep for towing a trailer...that's basically 1:1 or 70% grade...you're literally lifting about 70% of the trailer's weight. I don't think you can do any mod to the transmission that will make that kind of grade safe.

I personally wouldn't try towing up much over a 30% to 35% grade...a rise of 3 to 3.5 feet for every 10 feet of road/driveway surface. My driveway has a 20% grade...rises about 2 feet for every 10 feet of length and my Tundra takes a lot of throttle to back my 3500 lb trailer up even that!

[2000LtdKen]

Ray hit it with the weight distribution hitch. Really makes a difference. I tow a Weekend Warrior 21' Toy Hauler and she tows like a dream. I go over the same mountains you do and the truck pulls like a champ. I did notice you are running big tires and your truck is lifted so you are taking away some of the great handling Toyota built into your vehicle. Granted you can do a lot more things off road, but now that you are getting into ATV's you don't really need to go 4x4ing. My truck runs Michelin 265/75-16 Load Range E and it really firms up the wiggle when towing. They are set at 45 psi when towing. I also have air bags to get the truck nice and level. Used in conjunction with Weight Distributing hitch things run really good. I don't have any problems starting out or climbing the grades around San Diego to the desert. Teh people at Mels Welding in Vista hooked me up with the hitch and brake controller. Good people.


Hope this helps.

Ken

[GrizBear]

Originally Posted by cbchief

Oh ya, coming up the 45-50 degree incline of my driveway I had the truck in 1st gear and she shuddered and vibrated like mad.

I can't fathom that there is such a thing as a 45-50 degree driveway. That's absurdly steep. Are you sure it's not more like 15 degrees?

[KLS]

Oh ya, coming up the 45-50 degree incline of my driveway I had the truck in 1st gear and she shuddered and vibrated like mad. Once I got to the top and let off the gas it stopped. What was this???

What it was is simple...overload. 4wd low-range is needed...it that would work.


Ken

[Scottytundra]

I also have a Taho lite trailer. A weight Dist hitch, and a set of Firestone airbags will make a world of difference. Also make sure you are not over your GVWR. You can get the firestones for around $200.00 and they only take about an hour and a half to install.


Good Luck

[cbchief]

Gosh guys thanks for all the help.

OK I think I may be off on the 45 degree incline. I was looking at a protractor and trying to figure out the grade. Ok I'm an idiot that sucks at math!

I do have a WDH and I had it on when I was towing it home. Here are some pics of my driveway and the hitch setup. I think the deavers really caused alot of the problem. Why the hell did it shudder and vibrate like that going up the hill? I ordered Air lift bags from ORW and they should be here Monday. I'm leary about towing with the 4" blocks in the rear. I'm having Deaver build me a custom set of springs that have the lift built in and also an overload spring included to handle the towing. What do y'all think?

When I load the toy hauler, I'll make sure the quad and heavy stuff goes to the back end to reduce the tongue weight.

Thanks again!

Don

[fcatwo]

Man that's one steep driveway. You may have been a little off on the numbers but certainly not on the problem. It's no wonder it struggles a little getting up there.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by cbchief

Gosh guys thanks for all the help.

OK I think I may be off on the 45 degree incline. I was looking at a protractor and trying to figure out the grade. Ok I'm an idiot that sucks at math!

Hard to really tell from the pictures but really doesn't look a whole lot worse than my driveway. When I pull my trailer out for loading (it's almost exactly 20 feet from rear bumper to the hitch ball), I have to jack the hitch up 4 feet to get the thing level! 4 feet in 20 feet of driveway equals a 20% grade...looking at your 2 foot shorter trailer, your driveway doesn't look a whole lot worse...maybe 30%.

I do have a WDH and I had it on when I was towing it home. Here are some pics of my driveway and the hitch setup.

Having a WDH and having one that has strong enough bars are two different things. You may need to get heavier duty (e.g. 1000 lb bars).

I think the deavers really caused alot of the problem. Why the hell did it shudder and vibrate like that going up the hill?

With the lift, you've got a lot more angle on the driveshaft U-joints than stock...there's a possibility that you were getting some U-Joint binding when using very high power in low gear.

I ordered Air lift bags from ORW and they should be here Monday. I'm leary about towing with the 4" blocks in the rear. I'm having Deaver build me a custom set of springs that have the lift built in and also an overload spring included to handle the towing. What do y'all think?

If the spring bars in your WDH are strong enough...and you adjust them tight enough by "dropping" more links in the hookup chains, you don't need (and really shouldn't use) any additional rear suspension strength. My trailer has a roughly 650 lb tongue weight and my truck (with the 0EM TRD suspension) is dead level (zero rear sag) when I tighten my 750 lb bars to the functional maximum. I've never seen any need to add air bags or overload springs.

When I load the toy hauler, I'll make sure the quad and heavy stuff goes to the back end to reduce the tongue weight.

A good idea....but don't get overly carried away with this...ideally the quad should be roughly centered over the trailer tires so it doesn't affect the center of gravity much one way or another. If you get too tail heavy/too light on tongue weight, you'll have a trailer that's exceedingly sway prone.

Oh and BTW, if you want to improve your towing torque (RPMS between 2000 and about 3500), replace the FIPK with the stock airbox and replace your Flow Restrictor brand muffler with one that actually flows well. FlowRestricters, er, um FlowMasters, are great musical instruments for the exhaust but they truly are horrid for exhaust flow.

This flow comparison of a FlowRestrictor 40 series with Dynomax and Borla clearly shows that the FlowRestrictor has only 35% of the flow of a Dynomax. The stock Tundra muffler actually flows better than that. Dynomax, Magnaflow, Spintech are all better than stock (and far, far better than Flowmaster) but still make good V8 sound. KLS (Ken) and I have gone to a Gibson muffler because it really is the best for towing torque but is also extremely quiet. Probably too quiet for you though.

[cbchief]

Just looked at the WDH bars...their 750 pounders.

This really helped me keep my truck a little longer. Now I have to go check my u-joints and drive shaft angle. If the truck is level when loaded, would the u-joints still bind? They are fine under normal conditions.

Thanks Ray!

[bearsfolks]

I pull a 25' travel trailer that has a gross weight of 6200# with NO problems. I am able to go 55 or better on most grades in northern California. I didn't raise/lower my stock suspension, and my truck sits level with the Equil-I-Zer hitch. Modifications for one purpose may render it more difficult to do something else. The factory turned out a multi-purpose truck that can do most things well without modifying it.

[cbchief]

Thanks. I understand that the mods I've done are not conducive to towing but now I'm just trying to make it a little bit better for towing. Appreciate all the input!

Don

[cbchief]

Ray,
Which do you recommend for towing...Dynomax, Gibson or Spintech? Have heard great things about all of them.

Don

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by cbchief

Just looked at the WDH bars...their 750 pounders.

750 pounders oughta come close to leveling your rig...but you're going to have to really tighten them by "dropping" the maximum allowed number of links. So before you spend around $200 for replacement bars, try this (if you haven't already).

1. When hooking the bars to the trailer, raise them high enough that you have at least 5 links "dropped" (e.g. on the outside of the hookup bracket hook and not carrying any weight) and possibly even try 6 links "dropped". Most people only drop 3 or 4 links and that just isn't enough to do much weight distribution. You probably will have to use the tongue jack (with the tongue attached to the truck hitch and the ball latched closed) to raise the entire tongue/hitch together to make it possible to get a 5 or 6 link drop. I installed an electric tongue jack on my trailer for this very reason...it makes hooking up with a large number of "dropped" links a heckuva lot faster and easier.

2. If you're still not getting full leveling with 6 "dropped" links, then get out your BFWs (Big F.... Wrenches ) and tilt the ball mount downward to the rear by about 5 degrees. Remember to really cinch the bolts down afterwards...typically you need to put 300 ft-lbs on those bolts.

This will effectively be the same as getting another "dropped" link because the bars will be more deflected with the same number of actual dropped links. BTW, a 5 degree angle on the ball will not cause any strange wear to it or the inside of the ball socket on the trailer tongue.

This really helped me keep my truck a little longer. Now I have to go check my u-joints and drive shaft angle. If the truck is level when loaded, would the u-joints still bind? They are fine under normal conditions.

It's a stab at a possible cause...keep in mind that under normal conditions you're not using sustained high power at very low driveshaft RPM...the truck will quickly accelerate to a driveshaft RPM where binding is not as likely.

Thanks Ray!

Welcome!

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by cbchief

Ray,
Which do you recommend for towing...Dynomax, Gibson or Spintech? Have heard great things about all of them.

Don

Any and all of them should work well for improving low to mid range torque. Probably not much performance difference but there is a lot of sound difference. Dynomax is a fiber packed muffler with the normal glass pack type rumble. It will be moderately to fairly loud at high throttle openings (and you're going to be using a LOT of high throttle in mountain towing). Spintech (with "spin traps") will be a raspy loud muffler at high power. Pretty universally described as quiet at low power but pretty loud "when you get on it".

Keep in mind that a muffler that sounds great for 10 seconds of "get on it" acceleration is gonna become really, really annoying when you're "on it" for a solid hour of mountain grades.

That's why Ken (KLS), I, and several others went to the Gibson...equal (maybe better) low/mid torque when compared to Dynomax or Spintech but darn near silent at high power. A bit of rumble at idle, a low growl at moderate throttle up to around 2100 RPM and near silence at any RPM with high throttle openings. Only muffler that I've ever encountered that actually gets quieter the harder you get on it. It gave me two things: more towing torque and avoidance of fatigue and hearing loss from a loud exhaust. But for a guy like you who's been using an ultra loud FM 40 series, the Gibson just might be too quiet.