Max Tow Capacity

[dueceswild]

You Can Also Add Firestone Load Leveling Bags They Help A Ton. We Use Them On Our 2006 Tundra Nd It Tows Great. I Pull A 30 Ft. Enclosed Trailer No Problems . The Firestone Load Leveling System I Think Addes 1500 Lbs Of Cap. You Will Have To Check Them Out. Hope It Helps.

[mustang67408]

You mean this frame RAY?
I have to agree with you RAY. Glad I dont live near him.
I hope he checks that frame and everything else really, really well.
This was caused by a IN BED CAMPER SHELL. 1500lbs empty if I rmemeber right.
The truck had a 11 pack deaver spring set up.
Air bags, and was still sitting on the bump stops with the truck/shell empty.
IMAGINE what it looked like loaded.
HMMMMMM why did the frame crack?
PLEASE BE CAREFUL EVERYONE and think about YOUR SAFTEY as well as OTHERS AROUND YOU.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by dueceswild

You Can Also Add Firestone Load Leveling Bags They Help A Ton. We Use Them On Our 2006 Tundra Nd It Tows Great. I Pull A 30 Ft. Enclosed Trailer No Problems . The Firestone Load Leveling System I Think Addes 1500 Lbs Of Cap. You Will Have To Check Them Out. Hope It Helps.

First, load leveling bags add nothing to the load carrying capacity of the truck. Nothing, zero, nada. All they do is take an overloaded truck off the bump stops.

The reason air bags don't increase the load capacity is that load capacity is determined not only by the strength of the suspension but also by the strength of the frame and the strength of the rear axle. Unlike on some domestic trucks, the frame and axle of a Tundra are similar in strength to the rear suspension. There have been several reports of people breaking either the frame or rear axle because they installed airbags and then went and overloaded the truck because they very incorrectly thought they had increased the truck's load carrying capacity.

Any retailer who tells you that air bags increase a Tundra's load capacity is both ignorant and a liar.

Furthermore, unless a Weight Distributing Hitch with ultra high performance sway control is used, towing a 30 foot trailer with any Tundra...even the longer wheelbase double cab...is bordering on criminal negligence. The problem is the truck...especially the Access Cab models with only a 128 inch wheelbase...simply doesn't have enough steering leverage to control sway if it ever starts. The standard rule for trailer length was determined by examining thousands of accidents and correlating accident potential with the relationship of truck wheelbase to trailer length. That rule is: For each foot of trailer length over 20 feet, the tow vehicle must have 4 inches of wheelbase above a baseline of 110 inches. For an Access Cab Tundra, that means the longest trailer that should be pulled is 24.5 feet; for a Double Cab Tundra the longest trailer is 27 feet. Both numbers assume use of a weight distributing hitch equipped with standard sway control. If a weight distributing hitch or sway control is not used, those numbers should be shortened by at least 3 feet (21.5 feet for a AC Tundra, 24 feet for a DC). Only if a WDH with ultra high performance sway prevention is used (e.g. a Hensley Arrow Hitch) should anyone ever feel they are towing a 30 foot trailer safely behind any model of Tundra.

Finally, using air bags instead of a weight distributing hitch to correct trailer induced rear sag is double stupidity. The problem is that when a trailer is hooked to the truck, 3 things (not just one) happen to the suspension. First, all the tongue weight is put on the rear suspension. Second, because the tongue weight is applied well behind the truck's rear axle, a substantial (several hundred pounds) amount of weight is taken off the front the suspension because of teeter-totter like action where the truck's rear axle is the pivot point. Third, the weight that comes off the front suspension does not vanish; rather it also goes onto the rear suspension. The net effect is the rear suspension is overloaded with about 130% of the tongue weight; the front suspension is unweighted by about 30% of the tongue weight. Unweighting the front suspension substantially reduces steering capability and front braking effectiveness. This alone is stupidity; however the stupidity is compounded when air bags are used to level the truck. The reason is the unweighted front suspension is about an inch higher than normal; raising the rear to level the truck and to match the front means the rear will also be inch higher than normal. It also means the brake proportioning valve on the rear axle will be almost closed....so the rear brakes will do almost no stopping and the front brakes...with reduced tire grip due to the unweighting...will have to do nearly all the stopping. Dumb, dumber, dumbest.

[trog55]

Originally Posted by RockyMtnRay

That rule is: For each foot of trailer length over 20 feet, the tow vehicle must have 4 inches of wheelbase above a baseline of 110 inches. For an Access Cab Tundra, that means the longest trailer that should be pulled is 24.5 feet; for a Double Cab Tundra the longest trailer is 27 feet.

Quick question, Ray. Are the trailer lengths you refer to in this rule the typical, advertised, model length of the trailer body proper, or the overall length of the setup --- tip of the tongue to the back of the rear bumper?

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by trog55

Quick question, Ray. Are the trailer lengths you refer to in this rule the typical, advertised, model length of the trailer body proper, or the overall length of the setup --- tip of the tongue to the back of the rear bumper?

This rule was developed sometime ago (IIRC in the 70s) by several safety organizations who literally analyzed 1000s of accident reports to develop a usable rule about the correlation between trailer length and tow vehicle wheelbase.

In the case of nearly all standard travel trailers, the advertised or stated length does include the tongue length. So I'm sure that for this class of trailer, the manufacturer's advertised length for the model in the the accident report was used as is. Advertised length of travel trailers often doesn't include the amount the rear bumper sticks out...and the bumper length doesn't affect the trailer's sway propensity...so the length from tongue ball socket to the rear of the trailer body is what's important.

In the case of cargo trailers there may be a difference since the advertised length of these is often just the actual cargo box length and doesn't include the tongue length. I suspect...but can't guarantee...that the safety organizations very likely adjusted the length of cargo trailers by adding a typical tongue length (3 ft?) to the advertised box length to get a total length that they could match up with the travel trailer lengths.

Which makes towing a cargo trailer even more treacherous...1st, they are often actually longer than the advertised length. And 2nd, it's quite easy to misload them and wind up with the center of gravity directly over or even behind the axle(s)...a situation that's guaranteed to be very prone to produce trailer sway.

[anmrivera]

Another ? for Ray. I have heard that the Jayco trailers with the wheels set back further, help with sway and so this "anti-sway" formula you tell us about does not apply to them! I am trusting you before I trust a dealer who is trying to get a sale! I am interested in the Jayco 29Y http://www.jayco.com/html/catalog/fl...107&mod_id=498 With the low profile and wheels further back, they say it is acceptable to tow it with my truck. What is your take on this? Sounds reasonable, I mean, the rule of thumb can not apply 100% to every trailer, but I do understand it is not be be discarded either! How will this "New" design of wheels further back/slightly heavier tongue weight and low profile help in reducing sway. I would use a Draw-tite WDH with sway control, if it is safe to do so.

[tomhole]

If the "new" design does move the wheels back and thus increase hitch weight, you'll likely exceed your hitch weight limit. With a 6500 lbs GVWR, your hitch weight will likely be nigh on 1,000 lbs. That's 15%. You could say I won't go full and I'll keep the hitch weight down by properly loading, but that is contrary to the "new" design. I would suspect a "new" design like this to require something higher than the proven standard of 10-15%. Wouldn't want that on the back of my Tundra.

If you really want this trailer, budget for the Hensley Arrow. That, IMHO, is the only sane way you could tow something like this. It always comes back to can and should. You can tow almost anything with a Tundra. Heck, folks tow trains with their teeth. Doesn't mean they should.

Tom

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by anmrivera

Another ? for Ray. I have heard that the Jayco trailers with the wheels set back further, help with sway and so this "anti-sway" formula you tell us about does not apply to them! I am trusting you before I trust a dealer who is trying to get a sale! I am interested in the Jayco 29Y http://www.jayco.com/html/catalog/fl...107&mod_id=498 With the low profile and wheels further back, they say it is acceptable to tow it with my truck. What is your take on this? Sounds reasonable, I mean, the rule of thumb can not apply 100% to every trailer, but I do understand it is not be be discarded either! How will this "New" design of wheels further back/slightly heavier tongue weight and low profile help in reducing sway. I would use a Draw-tite WDH with sway control, if it is safe to do so.

The theory that putting the wheels further back relative to the center of gravity and relative to the total length of the trailer will make the trailer more sway resistant is entirely true. The problem is that the farther the wheels are behind the center of gravity, the higher the percentage of total trailer weight on the tongue. And there are some real limits to how much tongue weight most half ton trucks/SUVs can handle...typically it's not much over 900 lbs.

In addition, a lower profile trailer will indeed be less like to experience side-wind/semitruck-wake induced sway for the simple reason that it has less sidewall area.

And in fact both concepts have been employed by the ultimate in low profile, truly ultra lightweight, highly sway resistant trailers made by TrailManor. As a folding hardwall trailer, TrailManors have roughly the same profile as a HiLo or even a large Coleman popup. But unlike the HiLo, TrailManors have very rearward axle location and hence are truly sway resistant...so sway resistant the factory discourages use of sway control. I have a TrailManor 2720SL (20 feet long in towing configuration, the equivalent of a 27 foot trailer when open for use)...and, before I bought my Tundra, towed it for two years across Colorado's mountains behind a Jeep Cherokee that had a mere 100 inch wheelbase. Even with that short a tow vehicle wheelbase, never once did I experience any sway...even when meeting semis on a narrow 2-lane road with 50 mph crosswinds. Definite confirmation that a truly low profile trailer with very rearward wheel location will be highly sway resistant.

That being said, lets look at what demarcates "wheels farther back". With even "lightweight" construction of a 25 to 27 foot trailer, total weight will be in the 5000 empty to 6500 lb loaded range (almost the exact numbers for the Jayco you mentioned). And to tow that with a typical half ton truck, tongue weights have to be around 500 lbs (empty) and not over 900 lbs (loaded). The Jayco model you mentioned has a 530 lb tongue weight empty. Using the Jayco numbers, that means 10.6% of the trailer weight is on the hitch and 89.4% is on the trailer tires...IOW, the trailer CG is only very slightly in front of the axle (the sway pivot point).

Comparison 1. A standard construction, highly sway prone travel trailer (like that used to create the length rule) has 90-91% of its weight on its tires and only 9 - 10% of its weight on the tongue.

Comparison 2. The ultra lightweight, very rearward axle and exceedingly sway resistant TrailManor 2720SL that I own has a dry weight of only 2865 lb but a relatively high tongue weight of 392 lbs...which means that 13.7% of the trailer weight is on the tongue. And my real world loaded weights (from actual measurement) are respectively 3700 lbs total and 650 lbs tongue which calculates to a whopping 17.6% of the weight on the tongue. No wonder it's so incredibly sway resistant! As a point of comparison on weights, TrailManor's longest trailer...just over 26 feet in length in towing configuration (33 feet when open)...has dry weight of only 3520 lbs. That's about 1500 lbs less than the 1 foot longer Jayco "Feather". (must be a lead feather ) Another point of comparision...if Jayco used a truly rearward wheel position and had the same 13.7% tongue weight number as my empty TrailManor, then the tongue weight of the empty Jayco would be a rather large 680 lbs. And if the loaded Jayco had the same 17.6 tongue weight percentage that I have when loaded, that would result in tongue weight of a whopping 1144 lbs ....which is over the Tundra's max hitch weight even with use of a WDH.

So, as you may be gathering, there's a small element of truth in what Jayco says...the trailer you have in mind is indeed going to be slightly more sway resistant than a typical trailer of that length. And so you could safely go up maybe a foot over what the rule says is safe. But by no means are you going to be anywhere close to having a truly no-sway trailer (as I do). I therefore strongly suggest you invest in truly high performance sway control such as a Reese Dual Cam or, if you can swing the price, a Hensley Arrow like member KLS uses on a 21 foot Bigfoot trailer. The friction sway " control" on a Drawtite is not going to be enough.

[brandkd]

I think RockyMtnRay pretty much sums it up. No matter what TT you pull, even a pop-up, you will some type of wind problems. There has been a few "White Knuckle" times for me in high wind situations. The weirdest thing is passing a semi truck on the freeway. The first time it happens it's kinda freaky then it's not so bad. I call it the push and suck. When I come up on the back of a semi, and just the first 1/3 of my truck starts to pass, the air pushes me to the left. I correct it, then as the front of my truck passes the front of the semi's, the air sucks me back over to the right. This may not happen to everyone, it just might be the set up of my rig. It does freak you out the first time it happens though.

[jayr517]

OK, here's what I ended up with:

21 ft travel trailer:
Dry Weight: 4,340lbs
GVWR: 5,500lbs
Hitch Weight: ~300lbs (guessing)

I'm assuming that I'll have the trailer pretty close to the GVWR when its loaded, but I haven't weighed it yet. I have a shell cap that probably weighs about 100lbs. I'm carrying 1 adult, 1 child and 2 60-70lb dogs. Probably about 100lbs of cargo in the truck. I have a weight distributing hitch but no anti-sway control.

I've driven with it a few times and it seems to pull ok but do you think I'm safe towing with these setup?

[tomhole]

Looks good to me. Your hitch weight will be closer to 650 lbs (no kidding). Good that you're planning on the GVWR. With your plans, I think you have a nicely matched rig. I would still weigh it all on your next camping trip so you know.

I would get sway control. 21 ft isn't real long, but $40 will get you a basic friction sway control. Depending on your WDH, you might go dual cam. Let us know what type WDH you have.

Tom

[jayr517]

Thanks Tom,

I have a round bar style weight distributing hitch from Robins Industries, similar to this one:

http://www.rvsupplywarehouse.com/pro...d/221/pid/3147

I don't know too much about sway controls though. Is this enough info to be able to say what kind of sway control would work?

[j4x4ar3]

Originally Posted by jayr517

OK, here's what I ended up with:

21 ft travel trailer:
Dry Weight: 4,340lbs
GVWR: 5,500lbs
Hitch Weight: ~300lbs (guessing)

I'm assuming that I'll have the trailer pretty close to the GVWR when its loaded, but I haven't weighed it yet. I have a shell cap that probably weighs about 100lbs. I'm carrying 1 adult, 1 child and 2 60-70lb dogs. Probably about 100lbs of cargo in the truck. I have a weight distributing hitch but no anti-sway control.

I've driven with it a few times and it seems to pull ok but do you think I'm safe towing with these setup?

I'm towing about that with an 05 Tacoma. Yup you'll be pretty close to max weight once you load the trailer. Recomend a Reece dual cam sway control if it will fit your trailer. Didn't fit on my so I ended up with a standard friction sway control. No problems with sway though with my setup. all depends on the trailer and the way you have it loaded though.. every trailer is different.

Have fun with the new trailer.

[Mr smith]

Im looking at an ECLIPSE ATTITUDE ATT19FK 19 ft toy hauler. The dry weight is 4800 lbs. Max I would be hauling three bikes and a quad in it which the combined weight would be around 700 lbs. Most likely id haul it dry until I get to where im going but will have a couple hundred pounds in gear. I have a 2004 Tundra 4x4 double cab. Do any of the experts think this is a bit much? Im guessing its gonna be close but managable with anti sway controls.

[Rlockyer]

The little toyhaulers often gross under the Tundra's limits, but if your dry weight is 4800, I would think that it will end up being too much.
Remember, that 4800 is dry and with NO options... no AC, no TV, no fridge, no propane, no batteries, no air in the tires (j/k)

So you're looking at 4800 dry plus 700 in toys, now you're already at 5500 without anything else, leaving only about 1000 before you're totally maxed out.

The biggest problem with toy haulers is what happens to tongue weight, especially when you don't have heavy toys loaded. One of the guys on Thumpertalk actually scaled his 26ft Weekend Warrior SuperLite. This is a trailer that grosses at 7500, so you would think that it wouldn't be too bad.

Tongue weight was 1600 pounds

Also keep in mind that the holding tanks are in the front, so even if you go out empty, you also need to dump before heading home.

I'm not a big fan of Toyhaulers behind ANY half-ton truck... and that includes the Nissan and Fords that are (IMHO over) rated for 9 or 10k.
Personally, if I still had my Tundra and needed to camp and haul toys, I'd opt for a 14ft flatbed Carson for $1500 and get a lightweight popup camper... big enough for two. For anything more, consider a 3/4 or 1 ton... or "tent" it.