Yet Another 5th Wheel / Tundra Question

[Touringpro]

Hi all, great info here! I've been a TS forum member for several years but until now have only occasionally lurked and never posted.

Now though I have a 5th wheel scenario for the towing gurus that may be a bit out of the ordinary, and with any luck maybe I'll get some advise other than "trade that thing in on a 3/4 ton".

We have a 2000 Tundra AC 4x4 SR5 w/factory tow package, currently live in northern Calif. but are moving to the Big Island of Hawaii where we own some land and intend to build. During the construction of our house, we plan to live on the property in a 26' or thereabouts travel trailer or 5th wheel that will be purchased here and shipped over. My preference is a fiver for a number of reasons not the least of which are stability and the fact I already own a Reese 16K slider hitch. If I have to settle for a TT I will, but if at all possible I'm looking to avoid the maneuvering aggravations and control problems that seem to be part of the package even with weight distributing hitches and sway control bars.

The thing that makes our situation unique or at least significantly different from the usual "Why can't I tow a FW with a 1/2 ton" thread is this: The ONLY weights I'm concerned about (other than the 11800 lb. GCWR and the GAWRs of course) are dry, unloaded weights - both for the truck and the RV. In order to be accepted by the ocean shipper, the vehicles have to empty. And by empty they mean basically anything that isn't bolted, welded, riveted or glued on. RV's can contain no water or propane; The truck can have no more than 1/4 tank of fuel and even the floor mats and owners manual have to be removed! Also, the MAXIMUM distance I would have to pull would be the approximately 600 miles from our present home north of Sacramento down to the departure point in San Diego, and then another 20 miles from the port of Hilo to the building site. The only stretch of road that isn't essentially flat on this route would be the Grapevine before hitting L.A. My wife would accompany me in another vehicle with our luggage and gear, so it'd just be the Tundra, the trailer, and me (200#).

Given all this, I'm thinking that perhaps one of the ultra-lite 5th wheels from say the Forest River Flagstaff, Rockwood, Grand Surveyor or Keystone Springdale lines might actually work. The Flagstaff 8524BHSS (26'7") for example, shows a dry wt. of about 5500# and a pin wt. of 931#. The GVRW is nearly 8000# but in my situation I would think this is an irrelevant number.

What do you experts think? Am I being realistic with this idea or is the Tundra simply not suited to 5th wheel towing under any circumstances?

Thanx a bunch!

Gene

[tomhole]

Gene,

RV.net is a good place to ask this as well. A lot more 5er type folks over there.

Question, though. What do you do with the 5er after the house is built?

Tom

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by Touringpro

Hi all, great info here! I've been a TS forum member for several years but until now have only occasionally lurked and never posted.

Now though I have a 5th wheel scenario for the towing gurus that may be a bit out of the ordinary, and with any luck maybe I'll get some advise other than "trade that thing in on a 3/4 ton".

We have a 2000 Tundra AC 4x4 SR5 w/factory tow package, currently live in northern Calif. but are moving to the Big Island of Hawaii where we own some land and intend to build. During the construction of our house, we plan to live on the property in a 26' or thereabouts travel trailer or 5th wheel that will be purchased here and shipped over. My preference is a fiver for a number of reasons not the least of which are stability and the fact I already own a Reese 16K slider hitch. If I have to settle for a TT I will, but if at all possible I'm looking to avoid the maneuvering aggravations and control problems that seem to be part of the package even with weight distributing hitches and sway control bars.

The thing that makes our situation unique or at least significantly different from the usual "Why can't I tow a FW with a 1/2 ton" thread is this: The ONLY weights I'm concerned about (other than the 11800 lb. GCWR and the GAWRs of course) are dry, unloaded weights - both for the truck and the RV. In order to be accepted by the ocean shipper, the vehicles have to empty. And by empty they mean basically anything that isn't bolted, welded, riveted or glued on. RV's can contain no water or propane; The truck can have no more than 1/4 tank of fuel and even the floor mats and owners manual have to be removed! Also, the MAXIMUM distance I would have to pull would be the approximately 600 miles from our present home north of Sacramento down to the departure point in San Diego, and then another 20 miles from the port of Hilo to the building site. The only stretch of road that isn't essentially flat on this route would be the Grapevine before hitting L.A. My wife would accompany me in another vehicle with our luggage and gear, so it'd just be the Tundra, the trailer, and me (200#).

Given all this, I'm thinking that perhaps one of the ultra-lite 5th wheels from say the Forest River Flagstaff, Rockwood, Grand Surveyor or Keystone Springdale lines might actually work. The Flagstaff 8524BHSS (26'7") for example, shows a dry wt. of about 5500# and a pin wt. of 931#. The GVRW is nearly 8000# but in my situation I would think this is an irrelevant number.

What do you experts think? Am I being realistic with this idea or is the Tundra simply not suited to 5th wheel towing under any circumstances?

Thanx a bunch!

Gene

First, I think you've thoroughly analyzed the situation and fully understand the weight issues. Second, a pin weight of 900 to 1000 lbs is well within the GAWR of the truck as long as you're carrying no other cargo/load (as you've stated you're not). Finally the total weight of very empty truck and very empty trailer are less than the GCWR. So from a weight point of view, you should be fine.

The only other concern...which I think you've addressed with the slider hitch...is the problem of the short bed when it comes to sharp turns. The issue is a sharp turn can cause the front corner of the trailer to collide with a rear corner of the cab at very sharp turn angles unless something is done to move the pin box rearward. If the slider hitch does this, then you'll be OK as long as you ensure you always move the slider before any sharp turn.

[sprj8008]

You should be fine. Especially since you don't intend to move it around much. On the other hand, since you don't intend to move it around, you may find a TT provides a better layout for day to day living as they tend to have more floor space at a single level. When I was searching the floorplan sold me on the 5er I bought. Good Luck.

Like Ray mentioned, don't turn too sharp. I guess for everyone towing a trailer... Don't turn too sharp.

Jason

[Touringpro]

Thank you all very much for the responses! I was hoping my idea was doable, and it appears that it is. I haven't completely discounted buying a travel trailer, but at least now I'm comfortable with the knowledge that there are 5th wheel options.

tomhole, I'll be checking RV.net out. It sounds like just the sort of site that I'm looking for.

As to the question of what happens to the trailer once the house is built; it will probably become guest quarters. Another option may be to sell it to someone else in a construction situation similar to ours. Affordable rentals are hard to come by in Hawaii, particularly on a long term basis. Before the RV shipping idea arose, we had planned to simply rent a house for the 12 to 18 months it would take to complete our project (things take a loooooooong time over there) . That's $20-30,000 down the dumper.

We then figured if we spent somewhere between $10K and $25K for the vehicle and around $7K to ship it, the cash outlay would be roughly the same and we'd have something of longlasting tangible value. How much that would be is hard to say, since RVing is unheard of over there, there are no parks or campgrounds, and no dealers.

I do think there may be a market for it as temporary housing though. The local paper in Kona had an ad for a POS 1978 Fleetwood 32' 5er for $19,500 and it sold in a week.

Gene

[Terryhauler]

Gene - I pull a Fleetwood 8275S 5er with my Tundra with no problems at all. Pin weight is only 925lbs. Trailer weight 5400lbs. No Issues. Look for a trailer with an extended pin box. I have a Hijacker 16K slider and I've never used it once. I've towed this trailer for 2 years and not once have I needed it. I'm sure there will be a time I will but having the extended pin box is a great asset. Rockwood has some nice units!! If you go over to RV.net and look in the tow vehicle section theres a thread right now about Tundras and 5ers. You have the usual people that wouldn't tow with anything less than a Dodge 3500, they are quite funny IMO. But you can find some useful info as well. Good Luck!!

[dsrtrcr01]

I was just wondering if you had to come down here to ship it out to Hawaii why wouldn't you just buy one down here and not have to tow it all that way? Especially since you are not loading it full of youyr stuff.

[tundra39]

I am wondering the same thing as dsrtcro1.Why not buy one close to your shipping point,San Diego Or LA area.
I don't want to alarm you , but if you have never been down the Grapevine, towing something, it can be a "real deal".I have gone over it in a 18 wheeler a few times & if those brakes get hot it is a he-- of a ride.I have smoked the brakes, even using a jake brake, which is an engine brake .Just wasn't paying attention.
The Tundra tows good, but it also has to stop good, so if your RV is close to gross it could get to be a problem. Keep in mind if you get the trailer brakes hot, which is easy to do on a 6% or better grade, the trailer is just going to push the truck,get the truck brakes hot & then you have a real problem.
Just something to consider.
Good luck on your decision.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by tundra39

I am wondering the same thing as dsrtcro1.Why not buy one close to your shipping point,San Diego Or LA area.
I don't want to alarm you , but if you have never been down the Grapevine, towing something, it can be a "real deal".I have gone over it in a 18 wheeler a few times & if those brakes get hot it is a he-- of a ride.I have smoked the brakes, even using a jake brake, which is an engine brake .Just wasn't paying attention.
The Tundra tows good, but it also has to stop good, so if your RV is close to gross it could get to be a problem. Keep in mind if you get the trailer brakes hot, which is easy to do on a 6% or better grade, the trailer is just going to push the truck,get the truck brakes hot & then you have a real problem.
Just something to consider.
Good luck on your decision.

You raise some good points but I don't think that member Touringpro needs to be particularly alarmed about descending mere 6% grades with a 5500 lb trailer attached.

Nearly all of my towing is on Colorado's high and quite steep mountain roads (grades of 6% to 10% are the usual) and I've never, ever had any brake overheating even when descending from Vail Pass (10 continuous miles of mostly 7% grade) or the western approach to the Eisenhower Tunnel (8 miles of at least 7% grade with no letup) or off of Hoosier Pass (4 miles of 8% grades with numerous 10-15 mph hairpin turns). This is with roughly a 4000 lb trailer in tow and about 500 lbs of cargo (plus me and full gas tank) in the truck.

All I've ever had to do was put the transmission in 2nd gear at the top of the grade (2nd gear is good to about 70 mph) and let engine braking do about 90% of the speed control. On the very steep grades (7% and above) I've occasionally had to momentarily use the wheel brakes but never continuously. On grades of 5% or less, just keeping OD turned off in 3rd gear has been mostly enough.

The eastbound descent on I70 from the continental divide is about 12 miles of mostly 5% and 6% grades culminating in 2 miles of about a 7.5% grade just before the Georgetown exit. After descending those 12 miles, I took that exit (a very steep downhill offramp with a stop sign at the bottom) and then parked in the nearby rest area. I noticed no braking problems at the stop sign and when I checked the temperature of my wheels (both truck and trailer) immediately after stopping in the rest area, I found all of them to be just slightly warmer than ambient temperature (~85 degrees). The reason was I used engine braking all the way down (2nd gear on that last steep section) and only needed half a minute or so of sustained wheel braking to stop at the stop sign.

Certainly there will be need for a bit more wheel braking with a 5500 lb trailer than I need for my 4000 lb trailer (and 500 lbs of cargo)...but it won't be a whole lot more. Plus at much lower elevation (the Grapevine is about 4000 feet whereas I'm descending from 11,000+ feet), engine braking will be substantially more effective due to the denser air. All things considered, I'm confident that if he uses 2nd gear when descending the 6% grades, member Touringpro will barely even warm up his truck's or trailer's brakes.

[tundra39]

Ray
I am surprised how you get down your Colorado grades with such ease.After going down Vail Pass with a 75000 gross load it's amazing your brakes weren't barely warm! I see you have a lot of grade decent experience, which brings up a point.Many RV people have little towing experience, especially downgrades.
It isn't good when you have to pull injured kids from a mangled suburban' towing a trailer' because Dad lost his brakes due to no or little experience or try to comfort an elderly couple who just lost their pet in a motorhome fire because of hot brakes. One was in New Mexico & the other in Arizona, so Colorado isn't the only state with 6-10% downgrades.
Maybe you could start a forum with some tips on steep grade decents that would help everyone that tows or drives an RV. Campers & motorhomes also have their share of problems.
As to your last paragraph, it only takes a little more weight & only a little or no experience to cause a braking problem, but if only 4000 lbs. like you there should never be a problem !! Altitude?

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by tundra39

Ray
I am surprised how you get down your Colorado grades with such ease.After going down Vail Pass with a 75000 gross load it's amazing your brakes weren't barely warm! I see you have a lot of grade decent experience, which brings up a point.Many RV people have little towing experience, especially downgrades.
It isn't good when you have to pull injured kids from a mangled suburban' towing a trailer' because Dad lost his brakes due to no or little experience or try to comfort an elderly couple who just lost their pet in a motorhome fire because of hot brakes. One was in New Mexico & the other in Arizona, so Colorado isn't the only state with 6-10% downgrades.
Maybe you could start a forum with some tips on steep grade decents that would help everyone that tows or drives an RV. Campers & motorhomes also have their share of problems.
As to your last paragraph, it only takes a little more weight & only a little or no experience to cause a braking problem, but if only 4000 lbs. like you there should never be a problem !! Altitude?

Really no surprise that I never have hot brakes since what I do is just apply two simple principles:
1. Brakes that are used only lightly and infrequently during a mountain descent stay cool.
2. If you primarily control descent speed by gearing down the transmission and using engine braking, then only infrequent and light wheel braking is needed.

Basically that means I use 2nd gear for speed control on grades in the 6% - 7.5% range; 1st gear on grades in the 8% and above range. The most interesting descent I've had so far is coming out of the the Brainard Lake NRA west of Denver...the access road switchbacks down 1200 feet in just 2 miles for an average grade of 12%! There were several 1/4 mile switchback legs of 20% (or greater) grades...and every corner was so hairpin tight that the posted 10 ~15 mph warning was a very realistic limit. And to make things worse, I was descending with an extra 250 lbs of wastewater in the grey water tank since the campground didn't have a sanitary dump.

But despite the extreme steepness, I was able to pretty well keep my speed below 30 mph on each switchback leg by simply having the tranny selector all the way down in 1st gear. Just before each turn, I'd use the wheelbrakes to pull the rig down from 30 to 10 mph...and then would get off the brakes (except for an occasional short tap) until the next corner. At the bottom of the hill there was a stop sign for the main road...I had no problems stopping but got out for a brake check anyway. Yeah, the wheels were a bit warm to the touch near the hubs (maybe ~90 degrees). Since the air temp was about 60, I'd clearly warmed up the brakes a tad...but only a tad (~30 degrees).

To me this is all just natural...but I grew up driving a stick shift in the mountains of Montana & Colorado...so gearing down for a mountain descent is basically instinctual.

That being said, I fully agree with the gist of your post...many folks (nearly all "flatlanders") haven't a clue about the need to both slow down and gear down at the top of a mountain grade. And so they do depend solely on their wheel brakes...that being all they know about slowing down...and those wheel brakes very quickly overheat and fade into nothingness. And then comes the inevitable accident along with the not uncommon wheel fire started by red hot brakes. I've thankfully never seen an RV rig in that state but I have seen a couple of semi-truck/trailers billowing vast amounts of acrid brake smoke from every wheel. One was in front of me on the westside descent on I70 smoking so badly that I knew something was about to go so I hung way back. Sure enough, the driver totally lost his brakes shortly thereafter and wound up taking the runaway truck ramp. Trailer was licensed in Illlinois so I wasn't shocked.

As for altitude...that does indeed make big difference in engine braking. At high altitudes, the very thin air results in much less vacuum drag when the throttle plate is closed than the thicker air near sea level does.

[tomhole]

Even with my minivan and a 3,000 lbs trailer w/ trailer brakes, you gotta think ahead. Way ahead. I usually go uphill faster than I go downhill. As soon as you get faster than 1st gear or 2nd gear can downshift and you haven't selected that gear yet, you are in danger. It had been a while since I towed when I got my pop-up this year and I had some re-learnin' to do. Stay ahead and go slow downhill. Everyone might be flyin' by as you are doing 50 mph in second gear on the interstate downhill, but you'll be safe.

Many years ago, I had the brakes of my Grand Am on fire in Tennessee. That wasn't fun. I also lit my F/A-18 brakes up after a heavy weight, 160 mph aborted take-off in Dallas. The feeling you get when you push the pedals and you seem to speed up instead of slow down is quite unnverving.

Tom

[Touringpro]

Okay, there's been a change of plans. After looking at suitable (as far as weight is concerned) 5th wheels, we decided the floorplans just weren't what we would be happy with. The choices were just too limiting, so despite my aversion to travel trailers, there are just so many more options available to us with a TT that that's where we determined to focus our efforts.

After shopping and going to RV shows for most of the last month, we found 2 models we really like: the Jayco Jay Feather 29Y and Jay Flight 31BHS. These are the respective specs:

29Y-
Length: 30'6"
Dry Wt: 4970#
Hitch Wt: 530#

31BHS-
Length: 32'6"
Dry Wt: 6885#
Hitch Wt: 970#

I realize both of these units are loooooong for a vehicle with the Tundra's wheelbase, and in the case of the 31BHS, weight is an issue too. I found a dealer in Mesa, AZ with hellacious prices on Jayco rigs, so if we buy one, that's where it will come from. If need be I'll hire a transporter to tow it to San Diego. I'd like to avoid this expense if I can so I'm asking for expert advice again.

I weighed the truck yesterday, and with 1/4 tank of gas, an Equal-i-zer 1000/10000 WD hitch, and me it tipped the scale at 5060#. I figure weight-wise the 29Y should be no problem; however the 31BHS (which we REALLY like and will probably weigh closer to 6950# with the options we want) puts me over the GCVW by about 200 lbs. or so.

I can't see this being a big deal at the Hawaii end since I'm only going to have to pull it about 20 miles at most and won't be going more than 40 mph. It's the Phoenix-SD stretch thhat I'm wondering about. I've never travelled I-8, but it looks pretty flat - on paper at least - except for a small mountain range that appears to be only about 4000' in elevation. If I keep it to 50 mph, pick a day with no wind, and hug the shoulder, do you think I'll get there in one piece . . . or should I just bag it and hire somebody with a Volvo 660

Thanks again for all the help on this forum!

Aloha,
Gene

[tundra39]

Originally Posted by Touringpro

Okay, there's been a change of plans. After looking at suitable (as far as weight is concerned) 5th wheels, we decided the floorplans just weren't what we would be happy with. The choices were just too limiting, so despite my aversion to travel trailers, there are just so many more options available to us with a TT that that's where we determined to focus our efforts.

After shopping and going to RV shows for most of the last month, we found 2 models we really like: the Jayco Jay Feather 29Y and Jay Flight 31BHS. These are the respective specs:

29Y-
Length: 30'6"
Dry Wt: 4970#
Hitch Wt: 530#

31BHS-
Length: 32'6"
Dry Wt: 6885#
Hitch Wt: 970#

I realize both of these units are loooooong for a vehicle with the Tundra's wheelbase, and in the case of the 31BHS, weight is an issue too. I found a dealer in Mesa, AZ with hellacious prices on Jayco rigs, so if we buy one, that's where it will come from. If need be I'll hire a transporter to tow it to San Diego. I'd like to avoid this expense if I can so I'm asking for expert advice again.

I weighed the truck yesterday, and with 1/4 tank of gas, an Equal-i-zer 1000/10000 WD hitch, and me it tipped the scale at 5060#. I figure weight-wise the 29Y should be no problem; however the 31BHS (which we REALLY like and will probably weigh closer to 6950# with the options we want) puts me over the GCVW by about 200 lbs. or so.

I can't see this being a big deal at the Hawaii end since I'm only going to have to pull it about 20 miles at most and won't be going more than 40 mph. It's the Phoenix-SD stretch thhat I'm wondering about. I've never travelled I-8, but it looks pretty flat - on paper at least - except for a small mountain range that appears to be only about 4000' in elevation. If I keep it to 50 mph, pick a day with no wind, and hug the shoulder, do you think I'll get there in one piece . . . or should I just bag it and hire somebody with a Volvo 660

Thanks again for all the help on this forum!

Aloha,
Gene

Gene
Maybe I can be of some help on your towing concern to San Diego. I lived in Mesa for 39 years & commuted to SD quite a few times.I left in 94 so here is what I remember.
The first pull is about Welton Az going towards Yuma.It starts around milepost 30 but isn't very long. The next one is a beauty, the 4000 foot range. It starts about 20 miles west of El Centro & one of the passes is about 3200 feet if I remember correctly. Keep in mind you are starting not much above sea level.Once in awhile they do get snow in the passes so you might check the weather this time of year. It is a long hard pull, but taking it slow & careful is the key.Check for wind through the passes this time of year too.
I hope this helps. Someone living down there might have more current info.
Good luck
Bob

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by Touringpro

I realize both of these units are loooooong for a vehicle with the Tundra's wheelbase, and in the case of the 31BHS, weight is an issue too. I found a dealer in Mesa, AZ with hellacious prices on Jayco rigs, so if we buy one, that's where it will come from. If need be I'll hire a transporter to tow it to San Diego. I'd like to avoid this expense if I can so I'm asking for expert advice again.

I weighed the truck yesterday, and with 1/4 tank of gas, an Equal-i-zer 1000/10000 WD hitch, and me it tipped the scale at 5060#. I figure weight-wise the 29Y should be no problem; however the 31BHS (which we REALLY like and will probably weigh closer to 6950# with the options we want) puts me over the GCVW by about 200 lbs. or so.

I can't see this being a big deal at the Hawaii end since I'm only going to have to pull it about 20 miles at most and won't be going more than 40 mph. It's the Phoenix-SD stretch thhat I'm wondering about. I've never travelled I-8, but it looks pretty flat - on paper at least - except for a small mountain range that appears to be only about 4000' in elevation. If I keep it to 50 mph, pick a day with no wind, and hug the shoulder, do you think I'll get there in one piece . . . or should I just bag it and hire somebody with a Volvo 660

Thanks again for all the help on this forum!

Aloha,
Gene

Being 200 lbs or so over the GCWR is not a huge deal on a one time tow on (mostly) low elevation, (mostly) flat Interstate. Yeah, the truck will probably be down to around 35 mph on the steeper grades but it will do the job.

However, the 33' foot length is potentially a much bigger deal...even with the sway control built into an Equal-i-zer hitch, that's a very, very long trailer for trailer to pull with a 128 inch WB AC Tundra. About 9 feet longer than the standard wheelbase to trailer length rule suggests is safe.

If you indeed can make the entire trip on a windfree day...or at least one where you'll not have cross winds over about 5 mph...then the risk factors aren't too horrible. But it's quite conceivable that just one strong gust (30 to 40 mph) of cross wind...or even the bow/stern wave off a semi in 10 to 20 mph winds...could induce an uncontrollable sway in the trailer. And my recollection is the desert can get quite gusty with little warning so trip timing could be critical. You need to get across the desert portion on a very calm day (right around sunrise when the winds are usually calmest). And since speed makes sway much, much more violent and harder to control once it starts, a top of speed of around 55-60 mph would indeed be prudent.

And finally, I'd suggest you drive the whole trip with one hand on your electric brake controller's manual override...at the first hint of trailer sway, immediate manual application of the trailer's brakes may be your only hope for bringing the trailer back behind the truck and stopping the sway. If sway starts, do not apply the truck's brakes.