Buying Tundra to tow 6k = crazy?

[Cargun]

Would the Tundra be a good choice to tow a ~6k trailer, to be more specific, a 18' flatbed with a lifted 88 Toyota pickup on it. This being an off road vehicle a lot of towing is in hilly areas. I'm batting around the idea of trading my freshly repaired from an accident 05 Cummins on a cheaper truck (Not going to get enough on trade in to make it financially desirable to get a new 06 Cummins... unless Chevy would like to delay the Camaro by a few years ).

Before getting the Dodge I did most of my towing with a 93 GMC ext cab 1/2 ton with 350, 3.73 gears, and auto trans. GMC always did a workman like job of moving the load... but would start to overheat when forced to pull the trailer for 1-2 miles up a forest road at ~15 mph. Never got worse than 9 mpg with it either. But mainly I didn't like the feeling of always pushing the truck to its limits up bigger hills.

Towing with my dad's 02 or 03 Sequoia (forget which), it seems to have the same amount of power as the 93 GMC... so I assume a new Tundra with VVT and a 5 speed auto should do better yet. But the brakes on the Sequoia SUCK!

I can figure on an average of 500 towing miles a month. Will a Tundra handle this for 10+ years without failing? Will it overheat when worked hard at low speeds (read: no air flow)? Should I just keep the Cummins and deal with the headache of multiple trips to the dealer to get everything fixed (anyone who's had a car repaired after a major accident knows what I'm talking about)?

Right now my only new truck options are the Tundra or Titan, even with a supplier discount I can't get a Chevy, Ford, of Dodge 1/2 ton cheap enough for me to consider giving up the Cummins for it. The attitude of my local Nissan dealer has pretty much removed the Titan from my shopping list (as well as the tails of rear end failure).

[Arcadi6730]

6000lbs is pushing the limits of the current Tundra chassis. (I know we're rated to tow higher, but...) If you're going to tow that much, I would think that waiting for the 07 Tundra might be a better idea. If they boxed the entire frame, and they dropped in a stronger rear axle, the 07 should be able to handle 6000lbs of towing weight.

Good luck,

-M

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by Cargun

Would the Tundra be a good choice to tow a ~6k trailer, to be more specific, a 18' flatbed with a lifted 88 Toyota pickup on it. This being an off road vehicle a lot of towing is in hilly areas. I'm batting around the idea of trading my freshly repaired from an accident 05 Cummins on a cheaper truck (Not going to get enough on trade in to make it financially desirable to get a new 06 Cummins... unless Chevy would like to delay the Camaro by a few years ).

Before getting the Dodge I did most of my towing with a 93 GMC ext cab 1/2 ton with 350, 3.73 gears, and auto trans. GMC always did a workman like job of moving the load... but would start to overheat when forced to pull the trailer for 1-2 miles up a forest road at ~15 mph. Never got worse than 9 mpg with it either. But mainly I didn't like the feeling of always pushing the truck to its limits up bigger hills.

Towing with my dad's 02 or 03 Sequoia (forget which), it seems to have the same amount of power as the 93 GMC... so I assume a new Tundra with VVT and a 5 speed auto should do better yet. But the brakes on the Sequoia SUCK!

Not a good assumption. The VVT engine makes almost exactly the same max torque as the earlier engine. Only at high RPM (over 3400) does it make more HP than the earlier engine...mainly because torque doesn't drop off as fast with increasing RPM. So for low speed, slogging towing on forest roads, the new engine isn't any better than the older one. The 5 speed tranny will make some difference...but not a huge amount...1st gear is a little lower and there's a little less gap between gears.

As for brakes, the Tundra has no better brakes than the Sequoia...they're actually just Tacoma units. The Sequoia may have better braking...at least the Sequoia has disc brakes in the rear. Basically the Tundra's brakes are barely adequate for stopping the truck and up to about 1000 lbs of trailer weight. Trailers weighing over 1000 lbs loaded have to have good trailer brakes.

I can figure on an average of 500 towing miles a month. Will a Tundra handle this for 10+ years without failing? Will it overheat when worked hard at low speeds (read: no air flow)?

If you always use a Weight Distributing Hitch to minimize overloads of the rear axle and rear frame (the frame is known to crack from repetitive overloads and the axle bearings will fail with sustained overloads)...and only towed on smooth, paved roads, you'd probably do OK for 10 years of towing a 6000 lb trailer @ 6000 miles per year. But if you don't religiously use a WDH (with 1000 lb spring bars) and/or frequently tow offroad, then things get mighty iffy...be ready for cracked/broken frames and axle problems. Coolant overheating probably won't be a problem...no reports ever. However, transmission overheating could definitely be a problem...you'll certainly need an oversize tranny cooler complete with its own fan(s).

Should I just keep the Cummins and deal with the headache of multiple trips to the dealer to get everything fixed (anyone who's had a car repaired after a major accident knows what I'm talking about)?

Frankly, the Cummins sounds a lot better suited for the kind of towing you have in mind than a Tundra. Tundra's are definitely maxed out at about 6000lbs of trailer...and that's with little cargo or passengers in the truck and towing on fairly level, smooth roads.

[Cargun]

I haven't seen a graph comparing the new torque curve to the old one... I know the new one as 10 more ft-lbs, but I was hoping it had a flatter torque curve BELOW the peak, as well as the obvious increase above the peak. I assume the '06 rating reflects the new power rating standard rather than any change in the engine from '05? The Sequoia is really doggy at low RPM's, it needs to rev to move the trailer, I was hoping for more down low on the new engine.

Are Tundras frames, axles, and suspensions really that much weaker than domestic 1/2 ton trucks? I've never heard of these problems with Ford/Chevy/Dodge. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough

No problem on the trailer brakes, my trailer has them. Never had brakes when I pulled with the GMC though... the main issue I found was the trailer trying to jack-knife the truck on steep downhill hairpin turns, especially in the rain (Detroit locker in the back of the GMC didn't help the handling characteristics either). I'd like a tow rig that can stop the trailer without brakes so I'm not depending on the crappy trailer wiring to stop (Carry-On trailer).

On the subject of tranny overheating... I don't believe the Tundras have a tranny temp gage, do they? I believe our Sequoia has a warning light for tranny temp... is the warning light a good indicator of when you need to pull over and let it cool or is it an after the fact "You just killed your trans, you idiot" light?

Thanks for your guys' help answering these questions... I need to make sure I fully understand what I'm getting into before I make a purchase decision.

[dsrtrcr01]

For comparison I tow a 19 foot car trailer with a 1994 desert truck and it does great A whole lot better then my F150 ever did.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by Cargun

I haven't seen a graph comparing the new torque curve to the old one... I know the new one as 10 more ft-lbs, but I was hoping it had a flatter torque curve BELOW the peak, as well as the obvious increase above the peak. I assume the '06 rating reflects the new power rating standard rather than any change in the engine from '05? The Sequoia is really doggy at low RPM's, it needs to rev to move the trailer, I was hoping for more down low on the new engine.

Torque curve below peak on the new engine is roughly the same as the old engine, possibly a bit steeper (less torque in the 2000 RPM range). The new engine is tilted heavily toward making top end horsepower since the majority of Tundra buyers (if watching 30 months of posts on this website is an indication) seldomly load the truck with any load/seldomly tow and want "sport truck" behavior with gobs of high RPM highway acceleration/performance. Toyota sorta managed to keep some bottom end in the new engine by basically combining two engines into one via the variable valve timing and switchable intake runners. By using little valve overlap and the long runners inside the manifold at low RPM, the new engine more or less still resembles the tuning of the old engine. But it certainly isn't any stronger at the bottom end...there have been a lot of complaints posted about how disappointed people are with the low RPM performance (read torque) of the new engine given that it's rated for about 280 HP.

As for needing to rev the early engine for torque, that's why I have headers and tuned-for-towing exhaust on my '03 (and 4.30 gears)...those mods make towing in the 2500 RPM and up range a whole lot more pleasant. Before the mods, yeah, the RPMs had to be right around 3400 RPM to get usuable torque. And given the torque characteristics of the new engine, I think you'll need to rev it up to around 4000 RPM to get good power.

Are Tundras frames, axles, and suspensions really that much weaker than domestic 1/2 ton trucks? I've never heard of these problems with Ford/Chevy/Dodge. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough

Those of us who've been around here for a while have come to understand that fundamentally the current Tundra is an upsized, V8-powered Tacoma or T-100 (itself an upsized Tacoma). By comparison, a domestic 1/2 ton is often a downsized 3/4 ton. For example, the axles/frames on at least some (probably most) domestic 1/2 tons are shared with their heavy duty 3/4 ton and 1 ton siblings...its simply cheaper for Ford/GM/Dodge to build one frame and one axle for all their trucks and make it strong enough for the F250/350 or 2500/3500 series...instead of building 3 different frames and 3 different axles/differentials. So you can beef up the suspension on a domestic without worrying very much about the axle or frame...try that on Tundra and there's plenty of evidence that the overload on the frame or axle will take its toll.

From a cargo handling/towing perspective, IMO, you really should be comparing a Tundra to a Dodge Dakota...not the Dodge Ram since the Dakota (with 4.7 engine and 3.92 axle) has nearly identical GVWR and GCWR to the Tundra. When I bought my Tundra...specifically purchased to tow my 3800 lb trailer...the truck I chose to compare it against on test drives was the Dakota...and there was very little difference in performance or towing capability.

The reason is that the brakes and front suspension on a Tundra are mostly Tacoma parts...that came to light during the recent lower ball joint replacement when it was revealed the same unit was used on Tacomas, 4Runners, and Tundras. The rear axle appears to be an extended Tacoma (or T100) unit. The differentials are Tacoma differentials...I know because when I had my truck regeared, I was able to use 4.30 Ring/Pinion gearset right out of a Tacoma ( same part numbers for the Tundra). Several members have grenaded the really tiny spider gears in both the front and rear differentials. The tranny is a Tacoma/4-Runner unit...the '05 Tundra tranny was first used on the '04 4-Runner. I've seen pics of broken frames...both sides...caused by carrying a camper that was only about 500 lbs too heavy. At least one, probably a couple more, members have had rear bearing failures...the first indication is leaking rear axle seals...one was from sustained carrying of a in-bed camper, another was from towing a 5th wheel.

Soooo...I'd suggest that you think in terms of doing your towing with a Dakota. If the Dakota would do the job (other than probably having poorer long term reliability), then a Tundra will too. If you wouldn't consider trying to do your towing with a Dakota, then I suggest you'd better think twice about trying it with a Tundra.

No problem on the trailer brakes, my trailer has them. Never had brakes when I pulled with the GMC though... the main issue I found was the trailer trying to jack-knife the truck on steep downhill hairpin turns, especially in the rain (Detroit locker in the back of the GMC didn't help the handling characteristics either). I'd like a tow rig that can stop the trailer without brakes so I'm not depending on the crappy trailer wiring to stop (Carry-On trailer).

Based on the thousands of complaints about warping front brakes and brake pads that only last 10,000 miles (in just moderately aggressive but non towing driving), I wouldn't count on any sustained braking of truck and a 6000 lb trailer using only the truck's brakes (remember they're basically just Tacoma brakes). TrailerLife magazine did some braking tests of a DoubleCab Tundra with a 6000 lb trailer (equipped with trailer brakes)...using the excellent Prodigy controller...and found the rig stopped well one time from 60 mph. But a back-to-back 2nd stop from 60 mph produced "severe fade" in the truck's brakes. I took that as strong hint that the trailer better have very good and fully functional brakes if you need to repeatedly apply braking on a mountain grade.

As for the trailer trying to jacknife the truck...the technical term is trailer induced oversteer...keep in mind that the Access Cab Tundra has only a 128 inch wheelbase (rather dangerously short for controlling a heavy trailer on steeply descending hairpin corner on a slippery surface if you're unable to apply trailer brakes to retard the trailer). The Double Cab has a decent 140 inch wheelbase...but weighs about 500 lbs more with the same GCWR so it's real tow capacity is 500 lbs less than the AC Tundra.

On the subject of tranny overheating... I don't believe the Tundras have a tranny temp gage, do they? I believe our Sequoia has a warning light for tranny temp... is the warning light a good indicator of when you need to pull over and let it cool or is it an after the fact "You just killed your trans, you idiot" light?

No, Tundras do not have tranny temp guages...only a warning light. The light supposedly comes on at 250 degrees or so...just below the kill the tranny temp. So if it ever does come on, you'd best immediately pull over and let it idle in park for around 15 or so minutes. And at the earliest opportunity, replace the fluid. And no, you can't use synthetic Dexron in the '05 and later trannies...it has to be Toyota's proprietary WS fluid.

Because of this and because most of my towing is mountain towing on Colorado's steep roads, I did equip my truck with a tranny temp guage. So far the highest pan temp I've seen is about 210. But I don't tow up steep grades at low speeds...that 210 was measured after about 5 miles of climbing a 6% grade at 60 mph (lots of airflow) with a 90 degree ambient temp. I should note the trans temp was still steadily rising when the road finally leveled out...it certainly hadn't peaked.

Thanks for your guys' help answering these questions... I need to make sure I fully understand what I'm getting into before I make a purchase decision.

Welcome. I think a Tundra is an absolutely great tow vehicle as long as the trailer weights are under about 5500 lbs loaded at sea level on level roads. And at high altitude on mountain roads, both my dealer's service manager and I consider that the limit is only about 4000 lbs. After $3000 in performance mods, it tows my 3800 lb, low profile TrailManor travel trailer quite well across Colorado's 11,000+ elevation passes and I expect to get 10 to 15 years of good life out of it. But I strongly feel you'll be totally maxing it out trying to pull (or stop) a 6000 lb trailer over rough roads on a regular basis...and something (drivetrain, suspension, frame) is going to have a very foreshortened lifespan if you do.

[Cargun]

Thanks for taking the time to explain all the details of the Tundra... it really helps. The more I look into it I don't think I'll be adding a 4th Toyota to my fleet. If I needed a daily driver to occasionally tow, I may consider it. But I have a car to drive on a regular basis and usually only use my truck to tow or haul. I also tow enough I think the mileage penalty of going to a gas engine would be too much... I'm figuring dropping from 13 average with the Cummins to about 8 with the Tundra. From what I've read the Tundra doesn't to well compression braking... don't have issues with my 6 speed, and I can always add an exhaust brake if I get a bigger trailer.

Actually the domestic 1/2 tons have completely different running gear and frames compared to the HD 3/4 and 1 tons. Transmissions, transfer cases, front and rear differentials, and brakes are all upgraded. Heck, the Fords they're completely different trucks! I'm sure Toyota will get to that point eventually once the volumes allow it.

[HBjeff]

yeah domestic 1/2 tons are not much stronger than the tundra. the chevy is nearly identicle as far as component strength. the tranny and rear end are weak.

the ford and dodge put massive rear ends on their trucks though for 1/2 tons

[JoeWolfman]

Hello:

Im a newbie here and I have gotten a lot of useful info from helpful posters. BUT I must say I am pretty dissapointed in some of the things I have read on the Towing threads.

a. Toyota is full of it with the 7200lb tow capacity rating.
b. Toyota Tundra is not a full sized half-ton
c. Toyota Tundra tows like a Dakota and Tacoma rather than a domestic half ton(as it markets itself).

I loved my Tundra (2005 DC) when I bought and i I did trust Toyota's ratings when I bought my TT. I've done all the math and thought I was heavy, but within the guidelines from Toyota(We are planning to buy a new suburban with high-end tow next year anyway for my my wife and kids). Now it sounds like I should have gone with a domestic truck and gotten more "truck" in the "half ton" market.

Sorry to sound negative, but how can you not be.

I appreciate everyone's honesty and I know everyone wants to help.

BUT, I feel like I wasted my $$ and made a terrible choice with the Tundra.

[tomhole]

I think the Tundra tows/hauls adequately within its specified limits. Since those are published and this forum is available to help folks decide what they actually mean, then I wouldn't think you would be disappointed when you do tow with a Tundra. I tow at the max limits of the Tundra and I would characterize the performance as adequate. Power is sufficient, but not excessive. Stability is fine and does not lead to any white knuckled towing.

I can't compare it to any other 1/2 ton pickups, other than to parrot what others have said on these fora. Seems to be comparable. I would like to have more margin while towing and looked at the domestic 1/2 tons and based on their specs, dismissed them as I felt they were not a step up in towing performance from the Tundra. They have bigger engines and higher ratings, but they also weigh more right off the lot. Not a big gain, as far as I could tell. But, I won't dismiss the fact that they can tow/haul more. If I get more truck, it will probably be a 3/4 or 1 ton diesel (diesel being the most important factor, capacity second). But I don't think I will do that until someone builds one that is as reliable as my Toyotas. That is not the case right now.

Ok, enough flim flam. What does your trailer weigh? What do you plan on hauling in your Tundra while towing? When are you getting the Burb (make sure you get a BIG Burb and not a 1500, as that will not provide any more towing capability than your Tundra).

Oh, and I disregard any monikers that may have been placed on the Tundra. It is what it is and performs very well within its limits.

Tom

[TundrastruckDave]

Well, considering that I "personally" believe what Ray says to be gospel, when it comes to towing, I'd say TS.com member (Dixie4x4's) father's Tundra is way... er,umm correct that... waaaaay over the legal limit!

[JoeWolfman]

I have a 2005 DC. I dont have my numbers with me at work but will go off of memory(always dangerous).


Truck=5200lbs curb.

Human weight in truck: 320lbs.(2 grown ups and 2 small kids).

40lbs of firewood and 10 pound cooler=50lbs..

I reall dont carry much else in truck. Gas,snacks,toolbox, and wheelchucks. As I said, I knew it was close to limits and dont travel with "extras".

"Lightweight" Trailer unloaded(verified) 5300lbs.

Gear on camper 500lbs max(We never tow water).

Equalizer and prodigy.

I am not sure about tongue weight, but I have a good equalizer and want to say about 600lbs.

My my math when I bought the travel trailer was roughly as follows:
5200(truck)
320(people)
50(stuff)
200(gas)
600tongue
_______
6420lbs



Total weight would be:

6320
-600(tongue)
______
5720

and the total trailer(i dont pull water)

5300
+500
______
5800,

5720(truck)
+5800
______
11520lbs.



As I said, close, but should be ok on the numbers. I dont expect great pulling with this load with a 4.7, but I do expect it to do it safely.

I just need to do it a year(probably 7 or 8 trips but over some moderate NC mountains), and do plan to try in the NC mountains(fingers crossed) straight to the campground on the easiest grade roads possible. Naturally, if I struggle too much in Morganton, I will skip Boone.

I just was concerned about now hearing that we might not want to trust Toyotas ratings and the frame was weak etc etc. If anything, I assumed they would underestimate the capabilities as opposed to getting people into accidents and hurt not to mention tearing up the equipment.


Thanks for your help.

[JoeWolfman]

I should add from personal experience, it pulls it fine as far as I can tell in the flatlands.

I have a little bit of wind issue with the big rigs and it does get bouncy on that poorly spaced concrete highway sections but overall carries it pretty well at 2600rpms.

I hope an adjustment to the equalizer will help with the bouncing on bad concrete highway sections. I have read others complain about that too.

Thanks

[tomhole]

Joe,

You are doing everything right and managing your risks well. I would recommend a trip to the scales just to be sure, but I like weighing my rig

It looks like you are just a tad lighter than my rig. I have towed through the Shenandoah's and found the 4.7 VVTi to perform adequately. That 6 mile, 6% grade on I-68 was the biggest challenge and I just stayed at 55 the whole time.

I have that bounce when crossing the Key Bridge on I-695 in Baltimore. Only thing to correct that is to slow way down or speed up to change the dynamic excitation of the second order system that results in the bounce.

Now, for general towing, I feel that I get too much bounce. I measure this by whether the kids can do their coloring books while towing. First time I towed at 38 psi, they gave up right away. Now that I have everything set up optimally, they can color most of the time. If you ever get a chance, tilt your mirrors down and watch the rear wheel sidewalls. They are getting squeezed like a balloon and that really bugs me. I think LT tires (C rated or better) will help the towing a lot.

Anyway, I think you'll be happy with the Tundra and your setup. A 3/4 ton diesel will pull better, but you get all the baggage that might come with it.

Tom

[JoeWolfman]

Thanks much Tom.

I will report back after Labor Day spent towing in the hills.

I'll let you know if I need a tow

I will also update after I play with my equalizer setting.

joe