If Gibson makes a muffler that's the best for towing, doesn't it stand to reason that their headers might also be the best for towing? I've been searching this forum, and I've barely found a mention of Gibson headers. Everyone raves about the JBAs - but what about the Gibsons?
When I was looking around for headers, I searched these forums and found people who had dynoed their trucks in different configurations. I do believe that JBA did not produce the most hp, that went to some long tube headers. JBA was a direct bolt in with no welding. That is a big deal. The JBA+stock pipes+Gibson muffler produced the best torque gains for towing and this is something I do a lot. Read carefully Grass Hopper! You will find all you are searching for...
hth,
Ken
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JBA Headers, Gibson Muffler, Daystar Front Level Lift, CDT Kama Speakers, Elemental Designs 9.4 Amp, Eclipse CD2000 Head Unit.
When I was looking around for headers, I searched these forums and found people who had dynoed their trucks in different configurations. I do believe that JBA did not produce the most hp, that went to some long tube headers. JBA was a direct bolt in with no welding. That is a big deal. The JBA+stock pipes+Gibson muffler produced the best torque gains for towing and this is something I do a lot. Read carefully Grass Hopper! You will find all you are searching for...
hth,
Ken
Gibson states that their headers are direct-replacements for the stock manifolds - so they should meet the "no welding" requirement. I've read over and over the statement that "JBA+stock pipes+Gibson muffler" is "the best" - yet there I've found no dyno evidence to support this - it's pure speculation, or "seat-of-the-pants dyno", which is pretty much useless. Yet it's been repeated so many times that now people are just taking it as Gospel. If someone has posted a dyno chart of Gibson headers, please point me to it - I haven't been able to find it.
On a side note - there is so much useful and important information being shared in this forum - is there a way to gather the most important stuff in one place? With the info being spread all over and buried in many different threads, it's hard to find and potentially being lost. Dyno charts are probably the most valuable info - and not just the peak numbers (that's useless), but the graph of the whole curve.
i agree, dyno results would be very useful. i think part of the problem is the cost and time it takes to do good dynos. you need a before and after each mod. you need other conditions to be the same (same gas, same temp and humidity, same tires, same everything except the one thing you changed and want to quantify) for alot of us, our trucks are daily drivers and it's not worth it to spend a couple of hundred bucks plus take days off work for two dyno sessions and keep all the other stuff the same.
another thing to consider is that one man's trash is another man's treasure. one person with a 4 speed tranny and a certain rear end gearing and tire setup might need a little different peak torque range then someone with a different setup. yes, the dyno graphs would be very useful here, but still not going to solve everyone's configuration problems. chip or no chip? different size pipes, different mufflers and headers, etc. vvti or non? 4 speed or 5 speed tranny? it would cost thousands to dyno all the options.
i agree we could use more graphs and "hard" info. but, i think the differences you are worried about are pretty minor. i would trust the seat of the pants advice from certain members and go with what works for them. or, strike out on your own and post your dyno results as they come in. when i get ready to chip, i'll post my before and after dyno and whatever else is avail.
i agree we could use more graphs and "hard" info. but, i think the differences you are worried about are pretty minor. i would trust the seat of the pants advice from certain members and go with what works for them.
I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to commit time and money to modifying my truck based on some guy's speculation and "butt-dyno"! If all this forum can offer is speculation, well, it isn't offering very much, is it? We can all speculate all day long, and it won't help anyone know if a mod is beneficial or not, or which mods are the best. And butt-dyno reports are so worthless, you're often better off doing the opposite of what they're recommending! Do you realize how many people swear that their vehicle "has more pull" after installing a dual-exhaust with 3" pipes - when dyno tests have conclusively proven that this configuration actually *reduces* low-end torque? But it *sounds* better, plus it cost a bunch of money, so they *want* to believe they "have more pull". A butt-dyno report is totally, totally worthless.
You're right that dyno testing is complicated, time-consuming, and expensive - but how else are we to accurately evaluate performance mods? It's pointless do discuss performance mods without an accurate means of measuring.
This is for a 2003 Toyota Tundra 4.7L 2wd truck, with JBA Cat4ward headers and JBA Evol Exhaust System.
This combo shows a peak gain in torque of 38 ft.lbs - BUT - it's at 3852 RPM, which is pretty high, and 186 higher than stock (the stock system's peak torque is at 3666). The torque gain of the JBA system at 2672 RPM (which is right about 60 MPH in third gear for my truck, a 2000 Tundra) is only 20 ft.lbs. I'd speculate that the Gibson muffler-only solution Ray suggests would do better than the JBA exhaust. Pure speculation, of course.
I've done dyno testing of JBA headers and a Spintech muffler using the stock pipes and also the SSautochrome headers with a Gibson muffler I believe (have to check that to be sure). I used to have them posted on TS but TS erased them and now I can't reload them because they put a ridiculously small file size limit on them. I can tell you that based on my dyno testing that this combination makes great low and mid range torque gains.
The Gibson headers are very similar to the SSautochrome headers and JBA headers so my guess would be that they make about the same gains. I also have dyno graphs of the SSautochrome headers too compared side by side with the JBA headers and they are very close with the JBA headers having a very slight advantage. The JBA and SSautochrome headers are stainless steel so if you opted to get the Gibson headers just make sure they are stainless steel and not mild steel.
I think most people just don't bother with Gibson because the JBA and SSautochrome headers are proven designs here on TS and no one wants to be the first. The SSautochrome headers can also be bought for as little as $150 brand new so they are hard to beat.
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stock exhaust
Formerly Modified JBA headers now SSautochrome headers temporarily
TRD LSD
Extang lift off tonneau
Hankook DynaPro AS RH03
stock air filter & box
220 HP @ 4800 RPM
302 TQ @ 3400 RPM Run With Spintech Sportsman XL muffler, stock air filter, and JBA headers
208 HP @ 4800 RPM
285 TQ @ 3400 RPM Run With Spintech Sportsman XL muffler, TRD air filter, and stock manifolds
204 HP @ 4800 RPM
271 TQ @ 3400 RPM Bone stock
Quarter mile 15.526 @ 87.17 mph bone stock in 40-degree weather 2WD SR5 V8.
Quarter mile 15.389 @ 88.66 mph modified in 60-degree weather 2WD SR5 V8.
0-60 IN 6.88 seconds on G-tech
Dyno run results click here
For the folks here in California we have to make sure the headers are C.A.R.B certified and the JBA's are. I don't know about the Gibson's.
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My daily driver - 2008 Vios 'S' sedan. Tinted windows in the rear, TRD anti-sway bar for the rear, 17" rims - Samurai SC02 Hyper Black. TRD lowering springs. Megan Racing header.
My favorite ride - a 2001 SR5 4x4. With - RCD 6" lift, JBA Titanium coated headers, JBA y-pipe, Unichip PnP, ARB rd-129 air locker (rear), Camburg UCA's, custom front Sway-A-Way coilovers, custom Sway-A-Way's with remote reservoirs and billet mounts for the hind-quarters, PolyPerformance limit straps with adjustable clevis's, Stubbs Welding rock sliders and custom front skid plate, 315/75/16 Toyo Open Country M/T's, on all 4 corners wrapped around 16x8 MB Motoring Blitz rims, cryo'd 4.88's set up by Inchworm Gear, Trenz billet grill upper, T-Rex billet grill lower, on board VI-AIR aircompressor and 3 gallon air tank, AutoMeter A-pillar pod with trans temp gauge (sending unit in the tranny pan), Long Tru-Cool LPD tranny cooler, 10" Flex-a-Lite tranny cooler fan w/thermostat, TRD billet oil filler cap, TRD air filter, TRD dual exhaust, and TRD add-a-leaf rear springs. Superlift TruSpeed Speedo Recalibrator. Warn Trans4mer system with a 9.5ti winch running Amsteel Blue winch line. Budbuilt traction bar. Staun tyre deflators. Spitz Lift portable crane. Marlin Crawler 1.5" wheel spacers. Our home away from home, 2004 Outback 26RS travel trailer with 15" MB Motoring Blitz rims to match the Tundra.
For the folks here in California we have to make sure the headers are C.A.R.B certified and the JBA's are. I don't know about the Gibson's.
The Gibson's are. Mine came with a C.A.R.B sticker that I have placed under the hood. I haven't thrown my truck on the dyno, but it did make a difference in power. I've seen the JBA and Gibson's side-by-side and they likely offer the same performance gains.
__________________ 2003 Tundra Access Cab 4x4
Donahoe Racing LT Coilovers
Camburg UCA's
Total Chaos Steering Rack Bushings
Total Chaos 1" Diff Drop
10" Fox 2.0 Rear Shocks
Deaver 10-Pack
Wheelers Frt Swaybar Bushings
True Flow Intake
Magnaflow Muffler
930 CV Boots
Rhino Lining
Gibson Headers
ProComp 1069's
BFG 285/75/16
AJ's Rock Sliders
Skidrow Skid Plate
Philips 6000k HIDs
Coming this year:
4.5" TC lift
SS brake lines
4.56 gears
Air locker
BFG 315's
When I was looking around for headers, I searched these forums and found people who had dynoed their trucks in different configurations. I do believe that JBA did not produce the most hp, that went to some long tube headers. JBA was a direct bolt in with no welding. That is a big deal. The JBA+stock pipes+Gibson muffler produced the best torque gains for towing and this is something I do a lot. Read carefully Grass Hopper! You will find all you are searching for...
hth,
Ken
JBA is a shorty header. Ive never seen a Gibson header for a Tundra, but if it bolts to the stock headpipe, then its a shorty header as well. The longer the primary tubes, the more torque you get. Downey headers are a mid length header. In CA they are legal 2000-02. S S headers are long tubes (and very expensive) and not legal in CA regardless of year.
I split the difference and installed Downey headers on my 04 with Hi flow OBD2 cats, redid the Y pipe, 3" single exhaust. It flat out hauls ***. I have no problem towing my toybox (5000lbs or so loaded) to the desert with 33" tires and stock gears.
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Mods: Donahoe TCF coilovers, TC upper arms, rear Bilstein 5100s, Downey headers, 3" exhaust with Spintech Prostreet, BFG MT 285-70-17s on Helo Maxx 6 Chrome, Electric Brake controller. Tsunami RCA converter, PIE AUX adapter, LA Sound amp, MTX 10" band pass sub.
Why not Gibson headers?
Linear Mode
