'06 Tundra AC towing Fleetwood E2, 1 ATV on the deck, 1 in bed

[Projected]

I've been reading and searching in the tow forum since before I purchased my Tundra. I have a few questions to ask before we purchase an RV.

One of the Trailers that we are considering is the Fleetwood Evolution E2: http://www.fleetwoodcampingtrailers.com/model.aspx?mid=9&sid=3

I live near Denver and plan to travel in the mountains every time that we take it out. Wet and loaded with approx 700lbs cargo in the TT I would not really have a concern about the Tundra's ability to tow it.

BUT we have 2 ATV's each weighing 600lbs dry, so I'm guessing about 630 wet. I plan to put one in the bed and one on the front deck of the E2. I'm concerned about exceeding the max TV payload as well as having too much tongue weight. For a folding trailer the E2 has a very heavy tongue weight of 400lbs, especially when the dry weight is only 2545lbs. If I add one ATV on the deck and one in the bed I'm sure the tongue weight will be very high. I don’t know how to figure the tongue weight without taking it to a weigh station. Since I don’t know approx what the tongue weight will be, it’s impossible for me to know my TV payload will be at either.

The plan is to have a WDH too, I've read on here suggestions for light duty WDH's for folding trailers. I'm thinking that a heavier duty version would suit me better because of the higher tongue weight. Possibly the Reese High Performance WDH (I saw RockyMtnRay suggested this one).

For my estimates I'm using the following:

TV curb: 5000 (I’m guessing, Toyota lists 4785)
TV GCWR: 11800
TV cargo: 500
TT cargo: 700
TT curb (dry): 2545
ATV curb: 630

TT weight no ATV's: 3245
TT weight w/ ATV on deck: 3875
Total weight loaded TT and TV cargo (1 ATV on deck and 1 in bed): 5005

With the above estimates it puts me at approx 86% of GCWR, I was hoping to be less than 80%. I've read in some of RockyMtnRay's posts that he feels 4200 is a comfortable place to be in the Rockies with a Tundra. My loaded trailer weight is in line with this figure, but when you add my additional TV payload I'm at 5000.

Questions:
-Is there a formula to estimate the tongue weight with my trailer loaded?
-Does this setup sound feasible in the Rockies?
-Which WDH and what weight rating is recommended?
-Will this TT setup loaded with ATV's have too much tongue weight?

Sorry for the long post but this has been bouncing around in my head for a couple months now.

Thank you for any advice.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by Projected

Questions:

First, kudos on really thinking this one through. You indeed have an unusual situation and, to stay safe and also have decent towing performance, you need to do the exact kind of analysis you've done. My gut feeling is you'll have two concerns to deal with...one is the tongue weight you're already thinking of, the other is the load on the rear suspension of the truck...namely can you stay within the GAWR (axle weight rating). As I recall, the GAWR (rear) on the newer DCs is about 3900 or 4000 lbs...I believe it's a bit more than the GAWR (rear) of the earlier AC Tundras, which was only 3760#.

-Is there a formula to estimate the tongue weight with my trailer loaded?
-Does this setup sound feasible in the Rockies?
-Which WDH and what weight rating is recommended?
-Will this TT setup loaded with ATV's have too much tongue weight?

Sorry for the long post but this has been bouncing around in my head for a couple months now.

Thank you for any advice.

Yes, you can create a formula but you'll have to do some ratio type algebra. Basically you have to determine where the center of the ATV (actually its lateral center of gravity) will be along the distance between the trailer hitch ball and the trailer axles. And then, from that determine what percentage of the ATV's weight will be carried by the hitch ball. For example, let's say the total distance from hitch ball to axle of the trailer is 14 feet and you determine the center of the ATV will be 3 feet behind the hitch ball when it's loaded on the trailer. That means that 11/14ths of the ATV weight will be on the hitch ball and 3/14ths on the trailer axle. 11/14ths is about 79% and 79% of 630 lbs is about 500 lbs. Adding this 500 lbs to the trailer's native 400 lbs (which is probably low) brings you up to at least a 900 lb tongue weight. That's definitely way into major duty WDH country but still within your truck's hitch limits (around 1100 lbs) when a WDH is used.

You actually wouldn't need to have a "high performance" WDH (one with super sway control) because the main mass of the trailer is so far ahead of its axles that sway is unlikely to be much of a problem. However because of the very high tongue weight, you will need to have a WDH with very strong spring bars (I'd suggest bars with a rating of 1100 or 1200 lbs). And that, rather than sway, will necessitate a trunnion type WDH rather than a simple round bar WDH (which top out at 1000 lbs).

Caution: the numbers I'm using are for example only...be sure to plug in your actual trailer's ball-axle distance and the actual distance the center of the ATV will be from the ball. But basically I think the tongue weight consideration is manageable.

Now as for rear axle weight: If you get the tongue weight well distributed by using a WDH with very strong spring bars...and you actually tighten those spring bars tight enough to fully distribute that weight (not easily done without using an electric tongue jack during the hooking up process), then you'll have about 300 lbs of tongue weight on the rear axle. Realistically it'll probably be more like 500 lbs since it's so hard to really tighten those spring bars enough when you're dealing with 1200 lb spring bars.

Add the weight of the ATV in the bed (another 630 lbs...which is basically centered right over the rear axle) and the inevitable odd and assorted "stuff" you need for "toys", and I suspect that you're probably looking at around 1200 lbs of load on the rear axle from just trailer, ATV, and "stuff". Based on the two times I've weighed my truck, wth a full load of gas, one passenger in front, and an empty back seat on the truck, you might have 1100 lbs of rear axle capacity to spare. The trailer, ATV, and stuff in the bed are definitely going to absorb all of that capacity and will probably exceed it. If you carry any people or stuff in the back seat, you're definitely going to be overloading the rear axle and rear suspension, probably by several hundred pounds. That will give you almost no rear suspension travel. And while the suspension can be raised with overload springs/air bags/whatever, you're still overloading the rear axle bearings. Do that for several thousand miles and your probability of axle bearing failure gets quite high...as one of the guys who used to tow a 5er (with the rear axle load at or above the GAWR) found out. Frame cracking is also not out of the question.

Beyond the major concern of overloading the rear axle, I think your total weight will probably be low enough for tolerable towing performance across the Colo mountains. It definitely won't be enjoyable towing...you'll have the engine revving at high RPM on most climbs, but you'll at least be able to stay with traffic (and probably be able to stay above the 55 mph min speed in the left lane of westbound I70 from Georgetown to the Tunnels).

I hope this addressed most of your questions (as well as introducing a issue you should be concerned with). Feel free to post more questions if needed.

[Projected]

Ray thank you very much for your informative reply. I wish I posted this question before I purchased my Tundra, I feel like I may have made a mistake now. I thought I had all bases covered with my calculations and felt confident that the Tundra would work fine for the E2. As you noticed I completely overlooked GAWR. Big mistake.

Today we looked at a Carson Rebel:

Specs:
http://www.carsontrailer.com/subs/trailers/rv_sport/pull_front_kitchen/fr_rebel.html

Picture:
http://www.carsontrailer.com/subs/tr...fr_rebel/rebel_

This trailer has dual axles and it looks like the ATV would be centered over the rear axle. The tongue weight is 695 but I'm guessing having the ATV over the rear axle of the trailer would be an advantage.

The downside that I can see is that the dry weight bumps up to 3200, and it doesn't fold down so I'll have to deal with the wind drag.

Pluses are less tongue weight, lower cost, and not dealing with a folding trailer.

TV curb: 5000 (I’m guessing, Toyota lists 4785)
TV GCWR: 11800
TV cargo: 500
TT cargo: 700
TT curb (dry): 3200
ATV curb: 630

TT weight no ATV's: 3900
TT weight w/ ATV on deck: 4530
Total weight loaded TT and TV cargo (1 ATV on deck and 1 in bed): 5660

This puts me at approx 90% of GCWR.

Ray in your experience how do you think the Tundra would climb with this setup? I'm thinking not so good

Also my truck is an access cab, does this have the same axle as the DC?

Thanks again.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by Projected

Ray thank you very much for your informative reply. I wish I posted this question before I purchased my Tundra, I feel like I may have made a mistake now. I thought I had all bases covered with my calculations and felt confident that the Tundra would work fine for the E2. As you noticed I completely overlooked GAWR. Big mistake.

Today we looked at a Carson Rebel:

Specs:
http://www.carsontrailer.com/subs/trailers/rv_sport/pull_front_kitchen/fr_rebel.html

Picture:
http://www.carsontrailer.com/subs/tr...fr_rebel/rebel_

This trailer has dual axles and it looks like the ATV would be centered over the rear axle. The tongue weight is 695 but I'm guessing having the ATV over the rear axle of the trailer would be an advantage.

The downside that I can see is that the dry weight bumps up to 3200, and it doesn't fold down so I'll have to deal with the wind drag.

Pluses are less tongue weight, lower cost, and not dealing with a folding trailer.

TV curb: 5000 (I’m guessing, Toyota lists 4785)
TV GCWR: 11800
TV cargo: 500
TT cargo: 700
TT curb (dry): 3200
ATV curb: 630

TT weight no ATV's: 3900
TT weight w/ ATV on deck: 4530
Total weight loaded TT and TV cargo (1 ATV on deck and 1 in bed): 5660

This puts me at approx 90% of GCWR.

Ray in your experience how do you think the Tundra would climb with this setup? I'm thinking not so good

Also my truck is an access cab, does this have the same axle as the DC?

Thanks again.

Several comments....
First, although your weights are now likely within the truck's various limits, you are indeed quite close to the GCWR. One of the major components of the calculations to determine GCWR is available rear wheel torque (e.g. trucks that are available with different axle ratios have substantially higher GCWR when equipped with "low" (numerically high) axle ratios). And unfortunately, rear wheel torque drops a lot at Colorado's higher altitudes...in the Denver area, you have about 80% of the rated (sea level) torque; at the top of most Colorado passes (around 11,000 feet), you only have about 60% of the sea level torque. Although the relationship between torque and effective GCWR isn't linear, I think it prudent to realize that for most Colorado towing conditions your effective GCWR is only around 9500 lbs. And since this rig will be nearly a ton more than that, there's no doubt that your truck will be really struggling (think 35 to 45 mph in either 2nd or 3rd gear with the engine continually revving around 4500 RPM for most of the 60 miles going west from Denver--and the entire 12 miles from Georgetown to the Eisenhower tunnels). And the high profile won't help at all...especially in headwinds or at higher speeds. Mountain towing won't be enjoyable.

This trailer appears to be of the toy hauler genre...and those have a couple of tricky towing issues. One is nasty potential for sway...with the majority of the toy weight at or behind the trailer axles, the tongue weight is indeed lessened...but the likelihood of dangerous sway skyrockets. You will indeed need a very high performance sway control WDH to insure control. Another tricky aspect of towing a toy hauler is the fluid tanks (fresh and wastewater, toy refueling station (if it has one)) are located in the front...partly to balance out the tongue unloading that comes from having the toy way in the back. When those tanks are filled, your tongue weight will skyrocket whenever you don't have the toy onboard. If you have both toy and full tanks, you're fairly balanced tongue weight wise but your total trailer weight really goes up.

As for axle ratios, IIRC all (DC & AC) '05 and newer Tundras have a 3.92 axle. In '04, the DC had a 4.10 and the AC had 3.91.

[dsrtrcr01]

May I suggest a trailer?? I bought a Tahoe Packrat. A very light trailer. Stopped making them in 2004 but they are out there and I got the very last NEW 2004. They make a long and short version. For 2 ATV's you could get the short one. I have the long one. Here is a pic. It has a king size bed, Toilet, shower, 2 burner stove, Large fridage. The only problem is there are only 2 usable cabinets so not much storage.

Mine


The shorter one


Here is a used Longer version
RVTraderOnline

Here are it's features and floor plans
Features

More pics and info
Thor WANDERE PAK RAT Travel Trailer Motorhome

[dsrtrcr01]

Originally Posted by Projected

Ray thank you very much for your informative reply. I wish I posted this question before I purchased my Tundra, I feel like I may have made a mistake now. I thought I had all bases covered with my calculations and felt confident that the Tundra would work fine for the E2. As you noticed I completely overlooked GAWR. Big mistake

This is not a Tundra issue. it is a "Half ton Truck" issue. All other brands in the half ton market have this same issue.

[Projected]

Thanks again Ray. Obviously the Rebel really isn't an option, probably at sea level, but not in CO.

Well I'm at a loss, we are seriously considering trading our 2 month old Tundra and taking the huge loss that will be associated with it I really love this truck, but we need (I guess it's really "want") to be able to go camping with our 2 ATV’s and an RV.

We did not have the ATV’s before purchasing the truck but we were kicking around the idea. We did however believe that we were set on the E2. So I made a spreadsheet and plugged all the numbers I could, including ATV numbers, to see if the Tundra would work. As far as I could see there would be no problems with capacity, so we purchased the Tundra. After speaking to you Ray, I realized that I should have looked into GAWR also. As you said above everything looks good except for GAWR. So that is how I ended up here and I’m absolutely sick about it.

I looked at the Titan while researching which truck to buy. I shied away from it because of MPG and reliability issues. My step father has one and gets 13 MPG, and he drives like an old man. His has been reliable though. I've been getting 17-18 MPG mixed driving with the Tundra which is awesome. This is the nicest truck I have ever driven.

I just noticed the GAWR for the Titan is only 3800 also. But with the Titan I could tow a larger trailer that could carry both ATV's, then I wouldn't have to worry so much about the low GAWR. Sway as you pointed out above would still be an issue though.

At this point I'm actually considering buying a 2500HD GM with a DuraMax My neighbor claims to get about 17-18 with his, but I know that I'll never make up the price of entry for a diesel with decent fuel mileage. It would be much cheaper to purchase the Titan and get 13 MPG, but then we would still be limited. If we do buy another truck I want to pick the RV first and make sure that EVERY base is covered as far as capacity.

I did notice the R-Vision Packer toy hauler which is extremely lightweight at 2262 lbs. It is the same as the Bantam Flier F17 with some floor plan changes, and it has enough room when the dinette is folded to fit one ATV.

http://www.trail-lite.com/PDFs/Bantam_Flier.pdf

The Packer is not listed on their site but if look at the F17 floor plan and swap the toilet/shower with the dinette, and delete the sofa and move the grill/sink forward into its place you have the Packer.

The tongue weight for the Bantam F17 is listed at < 200 lbs, I’m sure that the tongue weight will increase on the Packer floor plan since everything is moved forward in front of the axle. The load capacity is only 931lbs on the F17, so it looks like we could only carry water and the ATV in the trailer with the rest in the truck (if there is room). Without the actual specs it is difficult to estimate if this setup will work. R-Vision lists no phone number on their site and my local dealer wouldn't give me their number either so I can't find the specs.

[Projected]

Originally Posted by dsrtrcr01

This is not a Tundra issue. it is a "Half ton Truck" issue. All other brands in the half ton market have this same issue.

Thanks for the suggestion. That trailer looks nice, but it looks to weigh 3560 which is heavier than the Rebel and I believe would have similar wind drag to the Rebel.

As far as the Tundra axle is concerned, I'm not blaming Toyota I'm blaming myself for overlooking that "minor" detail. As I stated above the Titan has a similar GAWR, so I realize I need to go to a HD truck to achieve higher ratings.

Thanks.

[dsrtrcr01]

If you are going to trade do the research first. The Titan actually overloads BEFORE the Tundra. It has a 9500 towing rating but it can't tow as much without going over the GVWR. TomHole on this board posted the #'s and did the work. Read this Thread page 2 Tundra or Titan and why?

The chevy is your best bet but count on 16MPG. That is what all my friends get and 12 when towing.

I find it EXTREMLY hard to believe you can not get a setup to work with only 2 ATV's.

I tow that trailer with a Mini truck on it and I know that weighs more then 2 ATVS. I pass over 2 large hills and 1 is EXTREME on the 8 in california with no issues. I drive slow but can gain speed all I want going up those hills. I usually just let it stay in 3rd and pull me up with no issues.

We have owned a Hauling business for about 20 years now and I have towed with everything under the sun from a semi to a mini pickup and even a VW Bug. I feel no worries when pulling this trailer. Granted if Ray works the #'s I will probably be in the Red and that is a NO NO but hey? I have no reserves about pulling this load. The truck does not sit on the stops on the rear end. It stops like stock with the Prodigy controller and electric brakes. I have a WDH with 1000 lb bars. Plus I get 12.94 MPG when towing which is .94 better then my friends Duramax.

I see Many Tundras in the Desert and all have a trailer fro bikes. Some are little flat beds and some are huge Toy haulers that I can't believe they tow out.

My Friend currently tows this with his 1994 v6 Toyota Mini pickup. A weekend Warrior FK1900 with 2 motorcycles in it. VERY slow but gets there and back every weekend for 3 years now. About 80 miles each way. So you MUST be able to find something
2007 Weekend Warrior SuperLite trailers

[cannondale27]

Your Tundra will handle the Rebel or any small trailer and two ATV's no problem.Yes in mountains you wont be in overdrive and may even downshift a gear but you are well within capabilities of your truck.Last year I hauled 3 ATV's with one in bed and two in 6x12 enclosed trailer and three guys with all our gear out west to Utah,Glamis and Saint Anthonys Idaho.While out there met up with a guy with a new Dodge Diesel he was towing same trailer as me.Coming out of Salt Lake city was a pretty steep hill.His truck did have power but would not downshift and he slowed me up so I passed him easily.He was not happy and said he even shifted it down manually with no effect.Stick with your Tundra and let it rev in the really steep stuff.

[tomhole]

Hmmm.... I wouldn't give up so easily. I have a trailer with 680 lbs of hitch weight. Probably more now that it's fully loaded. I put 500 lbs of stuff in the bed of my Tundra and another 500 lbs of water bags (people) in the cab. I am within all the limits, but just.

Go weigh your Tundra. Get some real data to work with. Next, go hook up an E2 and weigh it as well. Now you have some real world data to crank some numbers. I don't think you're going to exceed the GAWR, although it will be close. Especially if you have a large family in the truck.

Have you looked at a Starcraft 36RT? Bigger than the E2, but you can put both quads on the deck of the trailer. Not sure how that does with hitch weight, but might be an option.

Don't buy a Titan. As mentioned earlier, they have less cargo capacity (by 25-20%) than any Tundra. Also the worst rated vehicle ever by Consumer Reports.

I have looked at all trucks from compact to 1 ton duallies. No 1/2 ton truck is rated with a higher cargo capacity than the Tundra. They might call us 7/8, but we bring it where it counts. You know what a Dodge 2500 MegaCab with a Cummins Turbo Diesel is rated to tow? 12,500 lbs. Know how much cargo it's rated for? 1342 lbs. In real life, that 1342 lbs is more like 1100 lbs. They get to put 12,500 lbs in the brochure, though. Believe it or not, all trucks have this issue. Except the dually diesels. Even single rear wheel 1 ton trucks run up against their GVWR before the reach their tow limit.

Go weigh some stuff and check back in. Real data is much more interesting.

Tom

[Projected]

Thanks for the replies, for some reason I did not receive notification about the last couple posts. Anyway....

I looked into buying the used R-Vision Packer that I mentioned above. The dry weight listed on the trailer was 2686 and the GVR listed at 3983.

The owner was cool enough to let me take it to a scale (no WDH):

Tundra empty w/full tank: 5000
Front Axle: 2580
Rear Axle: 3100

Packer: 3200
Axle: 2640
Tongue: 560

I was surprised to see the listed dry weight at 514lbs less than actual. Loaded I'm estimating all payload and trailer weight at 5460lbs. This setup leaves me only 783lbs before going over the GVR for the trailer. Subtract the 630lb ATV and I'm left with a whopping 153lbs in additional cargo. Granted I can tow with the water tank empty (43 gal, 301lbs full), but I can't bring what I need to on a trip. With my estimates the Tundra is right at max payload with myself, girlfriend, dog and 110lbs of "stuff". I can't believe that nothing makes sense on paper for my Tundra and 2 ATVs either. There is no way that I can go camping with only 110lbs of payload in the Tundra and 153lbs in the trailer.

Even this setup puts me at 89% of GCWR, I really think that this is too much at elevations ranging from 7000 to 11000 ft. Especially with the long steep grades that the Rockies have to offer. I don't want to be doing 30mph up a pass pinned in 2nd gear.


Thanks again for all the ideas and advice.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by Projected

I was surprised to see the listed dry weight at 514lbs less than actual. Loaded I'm estimating all payload and trailer weight at 5460lbs. This setup leaves me only 783lbs before going over the GVR for the trailer. Subtract the 630lb ATV and I'm left with a whopping 153lbs in additional cargo. Granted I can tow with the water tank empty (43 gal, 301lbs full), but I can't bring what I need to on a trip. With my estimates the Tundra is right at max payload with myself, girlfriend, dog and 110lbs of "stuff". I can't believe that nothing makes sense on paper for my Tundra and 2 ATVs either. There is no way that I can go camping with only 110lbs of payload in the Tundra and 153lbs in the trailer.[/COLOR]

Even this setup puts me at 89% of GCWR, I really think that this is too much at elevations ranging from 7000 to 11000 ft. Especially with the long steep grades that the Rockies have to offer. I don't want to be doing 30mph up a pass pinned in 2nd gear.


Thanks again for all the ideas and advice.

Smart decision! Some comments:

• It's quite typical for a travel trailer to actually weigh, when "empty", around 500 lbs more than the published dry weight. Reason: the dry weight does not include any factory or dealer accessories such as AC or (usually) even a spare tire.
• Running a travel trailer at weights near or above its GVWR is usually just asking for a trailer tire blowout. Most manufacturers equip trailers with tires that have weight ratings that total well below the GVWR...and ST (specialty trailer) tires are statistically far more prone to blowouts than other tires, especially after they get more than 5-7 years old. For instance, my trailer has a GVWR of 4050# but the total combined load capacity of its tires is only 3640#.
• You are absolutely correct in assuming that towing performance on Colorado's typical 6-8 percent grades at the state's high altitudes (especially over 10000 feet) will be miserable at anything approaching the truck's sea level GCWR. Even though I tow a low-profile trailer that weighs only about 3600-3800 lbs loaded...and even after spending in excess of $3000 for headers/exhaust/regearing to 4.30 axles, I can barely maintain 55 mph at 5000 RPM with the throttle constantly floored for as long as 15 continuous minutes on some of the longer higher altitude climbs (e.g. west side of Vail Pass on I70). For all intents and purposes, once you get up around 11,000 feet the Tundra V8 makes about the same power that a 2.4L four-banger would produce at sea level. That's why I...and my dealer's service manager...consider the max allowable trailer weight for Colorado mountain towing to be only around 4000 lbs.

[cannondale27]

I havent wieghed my setup which is just a enclosed 6x12 trailer.No sinks or stove but I did have two ATV's in trailer and almost all of our gear,tools and camping gear along with one ATV in box and three guys.Maybe this is type of setup you should consider since I had no trouble at all.You also need to consider how often the heavy load and steep grades are going to be encountered.I guess if I lived up in the mountains and hauled a trailer loaded once a week every week I would get a more powerful truck.Thing is I pulled same load with my Tacoma a few times just had to let it rev alot more than Tundra.It never hurt that truck either after 130,000 mi.

[shall36]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and throw something out. Have you thought about buying lighter ATV's? 600lbs is a monster...sounds like one of the 4x4 models? Perhaps that's what you NEED to ride out in the mountains, but there are much lighter units out there. Say you get something that weighs in at 400lbs. Across two bikes, that saves you 400 lbs. Enough to make a difference? I don't know.

On getting a Duramax, I looked at going that route. The money factor is huge...swapping my 03 for an 03 Duramax was going to cost me in the $10K ballpark, if I recall correctly.