This is your opinion, not fact. There is without a doubt a trend on this forum to bash anything American. Just because it's not Toyota or it's not made in Japan doesn't mean it is total crap. You are contradicting yourself by claiming that Toyota designs their product for the long haul, yet they decide to use cheap, poorly made US parts to build their products? It can't be both ways. According to you, Toyota starts with a brilliant idea, uses crap to build it, and ends up with the best vehicle on the road. Sorry, it doesn't work like that.
Furthermore, how did you come to your conclusion that domestic manufacturers don't design their products to last long? Where are all these Tundras and Tacomas with 300k-500k miles? They have been out plenty long enough but I have not seen any. I'm sure there are some out there, but they are the exception, not the norm.
If you want to see the real high mileage vehicles that are used for severe duty, look no further than the domestic 3/4 and 1 ton offerings. There is a lady in my neighborhood that has an 04 Dodge diesel that she uses to haul horses from KY to NY and FL for a living. It has 456k miles on it and just recently had to have the head gasket replaced. I seriously doubt there will be many Tundras used in such a fashion that will see those kind of miles without some major issues along the way.
Not to bring up the Toyota vs. Domestics again but there is so much BS that flies around here from people who have no clue what they are talking about sometimes so someone needs to inject some reality. The Tundra is an awesome truck, but it's not going to rack up half a million miles with ease. If it's made by man, it will have flaws, even if the men that make it are Japanese.
Let's be reasonable. There is no denying that Toyota has had a superior reputation for quality compared to domestics. Does that mean that Toyota's don't break? No. Does that mean that the new Toyota's won't have problems? No. But it chaps domestic owners knowing that Ford, Chevy or Dodge hasn't built vehicles as well as Toyota, whether they will admit it or not. The numbers bear this out.
If you want to talk about the durability and reliability of domestics compared to Toyota then come talk to me. I can tell you that my last Toyota was far superior to the domestic I owned previous to it. That's just one case, but my odomoter was not far from the numbers you said you wanted to see. I now have a new Tundra. Maybe it will be a great truck. Maybe not. Time will tell. If I do have a problem, I'll say so in this forum.
I think the point made earlier is that the new Tundra wasn't just a new vehicle for Toyota, but an entirely new manufacturing model, using U.S. parts on a scale never seen before, and in newly-built U.S. assembly plants. That again cannot be disputed. It's not that anyone wants to bash anything American. In fact, I have seen Toyota owners on this forum proudly hailing the fact that the new Tundra is as much an American truck as the next one.
Found this bit of text in an article at USA Today...
"Toyota spokesman Bill Kwong said he doesn't know how many engines were made and installed before the flaw was detected. But he said the problem was found early. It was fixed at the subcontractor's factory in February, the same month Tundra was launched amid a $100 million ad blitz."
Let's be reasonable. There is no denying that Toyota has had a superior reputation for quality compared to domestics. Does that mean that Toyota's don't break? No. Does that mean that the new Toyota's won't have problems? No. But it chaps domestic owners knowing that Ford, Chevy or Dodge hasn't built vehicles as well as Toyota, whether they will admit it or not. The numbers bear this out.
If you want to talk about the durability and reliability of domestics compared to Toyota then come talk to me. I can tell you that my last Toyota was far superior to the domestic I owned previous to it. That's just one case, but my odomoter was not far from the numbers you said you wanted to see. I now have a new Tundra. Maybe it will be a great truck. Maybe not. Time will tell. If I do have a problem, I'll say so in this forum.
I think the point made earlier is that the new Tundra wasn't just a new vehicle for Toyota, but an entirely new manufacturing model, using U.S. parts on a scale never seen before, and in newly-built U.S. assembly plants. That again cannot be disputed. It's not that anyone wants to bash anything American. In fact, I have seen Toyota owners on this forum proudly hailing the fact that the new Tundra is as much an American truck as the next one.
I never said that Toyota doesn't have a great reputation for quality, they most certainly do. What I find ironic is how people want to brag that the Tundra is American made and so forth, but then turn right around and dog out American manufacturing and other American products. Am I the only one who sees this?
I would have to agree that in general that Toyotas are more reliable then their American counterparts, however, that gap is far more narrow then it was 10 years ago, and it's getting more narrow every year IMO. Both of the Toyotas I have owned in the last 2 years have been far less impressive then ones I owned from the 80's and early 90's. I have had more trouble with my 05 Scion TC and my 04 4runner than I have with my previous 8 Toyotas combined.
As Toyota continues to grow, and they build vehicles like the new Tundra that are actually capable of being worked hard, you will see more problems. Just because it's a Toyota doesn't mean it's going to go 300k w/out a problem, and just because it's a GM or Dodge doesn't mean it was only designed to last 100k miles. Every vehicle is different.
There was a time when I was the most diehard Toyota fan there was, but I have since branched out although I still own a Toyota. I can tell you the thinking that all domestics are junk compared to Toyotas is an outdated concept from what I have seen. Since the number was brought up by the original poster, would you not agree that probably less than 1% of all cars every hit the 300K mark? And of those, probably less than 20% of them are all original owners. Most people probably only keep a vehicle for 50k to 75k miles on average, so what's the point?
I never said that Toyota doesn't have a great reputation for quality, they most certainly do. What I find ironic is how people want to brag that the Tundra is American made and so forth, but then turn right around and dog out American manufacturing and other American products. Am I the only one who sees this?
I would have to agree that in general that Toyotas are more reliable then their American counterparts, however, that gap is far more narrow then it was 10 years ago, and it's getting more narrow every year IMO. Both of the Toyotas I have owned in the last 2 years have been far less impressive then ones I owned from the 80's and early 90's. I have had more trouble with my 05 Scion TC and my 04 4runner than I have with my previous 8 Toyotas combined.
As Toyota continues to grow, and they build vehicles like the new Tundra that are actually capable of being worked hard, you will see more problems. Just because it's a Toyota doesn't mean it's going to go 300k w/out a problem, and just because it's a GM or Dodge doesn't mean it was only designed to last 100k miles. Every vehicle is different.
There was a time when I was the most diehard Toyota fan there was, but I have since branched out although I still own a Toyota. I can tell you the thinking that all domestics are junk compared to Toyotas is an outdated concept from what I have seen. Since the number was brought up by the original poster, would you not agree that probably less than 1% of all cars every hit the 300K mark? And of those, probably less than 20% of them are all original owners. Most people probably only keep a vehicle for 50k to 75k miles on average, so what's the point?
I don't disagree with you, but if Toyota's quality and reliability takes a nosedive only after moving their operations to America and using a majority of American-made parts...what would you say? I don't think it's too much of a leap to see a cause and effect if that really is what happens. It's way too early to be saying that now, however, with only 20 cam failures out of 30,000 trucks.
You see American vs. Japan. I see it as what works vs. what doesn't. I don't really care where it is made or put together, as long as it runs as designed and keeps running as designed. Thus far, Toyota has come closer to that goal than the domestics.
That quality gap between Toyota and the domestics may well be narrowing, but I just cannot bring myself to believe it. I have a friend who bought a brand new Chevy truck, and he has had it in the shop for approximately 30 different issues. He thinks he has had it in the shop more weeks than he's had it. When you consider cases like that, 20 broken camshafts out of 30,000 doesn't seem too bad. Maybe we'll see 2,000 broken camshafts before all is said and done. Who knows.
Thus far, my Tundra has run very well and I now have about 3,000 miles on it after some fairly easy "break-in" driving. It may break tomorrow, and keep breaking after that. Or it might go for 150,000 miles without so much as a loose radio knob. Time will tell.
I don't disagree with you, but if Toyota's quality and reliability takes a nosedive only after moving their operations to America and using a majority of American-made parts...what would you say? I don't think it's too much of a leap to see a cause and effect if that really is what happens. It's way too early to be saying that now, however, with only 20 cam failures out of 30,000 trucks.
You see American vs. Japan. I see it as what works vs. what doesn't. I don't really care where it is made or put together, as long as it runs as designed and keeps running as designed. Thus far, Toyota has come closer to that goal than the domestics.
That quality gap between Toyota and the domestics may well be narrowing, but I just cannot bring myself to believe it. I have a friend who bought a brand new Chevy truck, and he has had it in the shop for approximately 30 different issues. He thinks he has had it in the shop more weeks than he's had it. When you consider cases like that, 20 broken camshafts out of 30,000 doesn't seem too bad. Maybe we'll see 2,000 broken camshafts before all is said and done. Who knows.
Thus far, my Tundra has run very well and I now have about 3,000 miles on it after some fairly easy "break-in" driving. It may break tomorrow, and keep breaking after that. Or it might go for 150,000 miles without so much as a loose radio knob. Time will tell.
What I think is that Toyota is a company just like any other. They are in it to make as much money as possible. If they can cut corners and still sell cars and trucks, they will do it. I think they took more pride in their products when they were the underdog, but once they started to really take things over, they set the cruise control and looked for ways to save $$$... I have friend and family that work at the Camry plant and they will tell you the same thing. I would much prefer a Toyota built in the days when they were trying to get that #1 spot then I would a couple of years after they got it.
I agree with you basically except for the fact that you are justifying how you feel about domestics based partially on your friends GM that has had issues, yet you write the Tundra issues off as being an insignificantly small percentage, yet GM sells many more trucks then Toyota and you have let this one truck form your negative opinion. Seems like the odds are not working to support your theory in this instance.
And of those, probably less than 20% of them are all original owners. Most people probably only keep a vehicle for 50k to 75k miles on average, so what's the point?
My '97 Silverado had 199,811 miles when I traded it in on my Tundra. My '95 Honda Civic has 244,620 miles on it and is still going strong....still gets 36-38 mpg. 50k to 75k is just getting well broken in.............
__________________ '07 Tundra SR5, 2WD DC, 5.7L, Salsa Red Pearl with Running Boards, Delta Toolbox.
I agree with you basically except for the fact that you are justifying how you feel about domestics based partially on your friends GM that has had issues, yet you write the Tundra issues off as being an insignificantly small percentage, yet GM sells many more trucks then Toyota and you have let this one truck form your negative opinion. Seems like the odds are not working to support your theory in this instance.
Nope. As I said in previous posts, I have my own experience to draw from...not just that of my friends who own domestics. The Chevrolet I owned was hands down the worst piece of junk I ever owned. And I didn't inherit any user-induced problems, since I bought it new. Do you think I wanted the Chevy to be that bad? I would have much-preferred it be a great vehicle. You don't want me to list all the problems I had...believe me, you don't have the time to read it.
I will say it again. I'm not afraid to talk about any problems I have with my Toyota. But if the gap narrows, like you say, it would appear that it would be Toyota falling to where the domestics are...instead of the domestics rising to new quality heights. In that case, I'll be shopping for a new brand...but we're not there yet.
The domestic toyota debate will never end. I dont think any of the big companies are producing junk, they cannot afford to. I bought tundra not because of overblown marketing or typical questionalbe japanese styling (I know it was designed in the US but the Ford and Dodge have a styling advantage IMHO) but because of my experience with my 1 previous toyota and my previous 3 ford trucks and 1 ford car. After 50k I cosistently had more problems with the fords. Your experiance may be different and I respect that. In 1990 when I bought a taurus the ford tagline was qualitly job one. Quality control problems seemed a thing of the past until the car was 3 or 4 years old then look out. Despite 3k in repair costs I could not keek the car on the road. My aerostar was even worse, self destructing at 80k (head gaskets, transmission, ac, etc etc) My present superduty runs swell after a wiring harness replacement, differential cover replacement, exhaust manifold replacement, fuel pump repacement, usual brakes and ball joints, hubs, all prior to 80k. Again just my experience.
By contrast Ford - Chevy - Dodge don't design their engines and transmissions to be highly reliable and durable in the long run so even if they do catch assembly related glitches before the truck gets into the hands of a customer, in the long run their customera are going to be less satisfied because of engine and tranny failures several years later in the trucks' life.
The severity of the dissatisfaction depends on the customers expectations. Some domestic truck buyers think 150-200K miles of engine and transmission life is excellent, but as they begin hearing 300-500K durability testimonials from Tundra owners 5-10 years from now they will become envious.
Do people really believe this kind of nonsense? I mean this sounds like a line taken straight out of Toyota's PR talking-points playbook.
Ford and Chevy can't design a reliable engine and transmission and their trucks don't last 300-500K? The American worker is to blame for Toyota quality issues? Seriously, if you are that ignorant on the topic maybe you should refrain from commenting?
I can't even begin to tell you how many F-150s, Crown Victorias, and Silverados that I've seen with 300,000(+) miles on original powertrains. It's not even uncommon.
And yet these vehicles were designed in America by Americans - in the F-150s and Silverados cases they were also assembled in America by Americans with mostly American parts. The Crown Vic is assembled in Canada with engines built in Romeo, Michigan. Maybe the real culprit here isn't America at all, maybe it's because Toyota isn't truly infallible and they rushed the 5.7s intro for those oh-so-important magazine comparos?
Seriously though, if there is going to be a problem, they will notify the people directly. How many people that bought 07's have traded them in already.. and of that minescule number, how many have the 50 vins effected by this. Even if it were 500, how many people would not be the original owners and not receive recall notices from Toyota? None. No need to make a public outreach to people when they already know who they are. I am sure that any of the trucks not sold already have been recalled to Toyota. Making a press situation about this is just bad for business. Look at this site alone. Some poor guy is scared to drive his new truck cause he is scared he might win the "lottery" Face it. 50k + tundras are sold already. Not every owner is a member of this site. for all we know the people could already been notified.
I had a Toyota Cressida, it was my first car, before my Ford Ranger (which I bought new). I just recently bought a 5.7 crewmax. My Cressida was used, I bought it with 220,000km on it and drove it until it had 380,000km before I SOLD it (137,000 miles to 240,000 miles). I did not do any maintance; plus it was my first car, I beat the hell out of it. Then I bought my Ranger new. I liked it, hell, I still like it. But it had problems, it was missing bolts that hold the drivetrain to the body from the factory. As well as other problems. Thus I went back to Toyota.
Once I saw this thread I decided to do some research. I bought a subscription to Consumer Reports to analyze the difference between the domestics and the imports before I bought my Tundra. The differences CR found between Toyota and every other major truck manufactuer for the past 5 years was striking. Toyota vehicles were, and still are leagues ahead of the domestics in major mechanical categories. I think (hope) we would all agree that CR is independent and unbiased so to argue with these results would be a waste of time. CR is basing their reports on their own analysis of the vehicles and from surveys sent out to tens of thousands of people. There sample size is much greater than mine, or anyone elses on this forum. Currenlty, Toyota produces a superior product. There problems per 100 vehicles is under 10 and for mojor mechanical parts it is under 5. The domestics are currently in double digits for both categories. One thing the reports did show however, was the domestics are getting A LOT better; which is a positive sign. I as a Toyota owner (again) wold like nothing more than to see the "big" three rise again. It would mean more competition and thus better products for the consumer. Consumer reports may report 2 years from now that the domestics have reached a quality level that suprasses Toyota. Lastly there is consumer data; generally, the consumer will always buy what they percieve to be the best option. Again the numbers stand up; Toyota has overtaken GM.
The domestic manufacures have their work cut out. Their overall business models have become strained, to the point of bankruptcy. Now their number one priority will be to take back market share and try and get back to their feet. (I know someone is going to try and say that none of the big 3 are close to bankrupt; look at the stock trends, income statements, balance sheets, cashflows and write downs/buyouts) Over time Toyota my become complacent and GM/Ford… may once again overtake them. What I am saying is, brand loyalty to the point of buying a subpar product hurts no one but the purchaser. If Toyota slips, and keeps slipping, you will see a trend change back to the big three; I will be one of them. But right now Toyota is the 500 pound gorilla in the room that everyone else is trying to work around.
Re: Camshaft Failures in new 5.7?
'07 Tundra SR5, 2WD DC, 5.7L, Salsa Red Pearl with Running Boards, Delta Toolbox.
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