The Upcoming HP/TQ Wars, How will the Tundra Fair?

[Chardog]

The next few years will be very interesting in the truck/car world to say the least.

I have been shopping for a new truck and mulling over my options for the better part of three months now. Do I buy now, do I hold out for next year, gas, diesel, new used etc etc. In my searches pertaining to buying now or holding out ive come across alot of information on what the "Big 3" have in store in the coming years. For reference here are what I have found:

GM - In the immidiate future (by next year I imagine) they will import the 6.2 Denali engine as their top-of-the-line engine for the Silverado bringing with it the 6-spd tranny (at the very least they will bring over the 6-speed and keep the 6.0 which recently got their cylinder deactivation deally). Both the Tundra and the Denali posted similar numbers at the track, with the Tundra beating it by a few tenths, but at that point to me all it takes is a few tweaks here and there before it comes out and it will be quicker. They are also developing a 4.5L diesel that supposedly puts out around 300HP and 520LB. of torque with MPG rumored to be in the high 20's on the freeway. They will also undoubtedly be dumping their new dual-mode hybrid system from the Tahoe onto the Silverado.


Ford - Ford's new TwinForce engines (supposedly being introduced in '09 through '11) should be pretty amazing if they hold together. They are basically going to twin-turbo/direct injection everything in there lineup it seems, or at least have one available for every car/truck. There are really no hard numbers yet but people are speculating that the new f-150 engine will be a 6.2L twin turbo direct injection V8 pushing 650LB's of torque (To me this sounds like a ridiculous claim if you factor in the amount of HP they will have to have for that amount of TQ will be well north of 500.) through its new manumatic "PowerShift" 6-spd tranny along with other technologies like Displacement on Demand for better economy etc etc.

Dodge - They will be getting a total redesign in '09 and will most likely the first 1/2-ton with a optional diesel in the states and is said to put down 500+TQ. The Hemi will also be getting a boost in displacement but I havent read any numbers on it.

So that leaves us with Toyota. To me they seem to be historically more tight-lipped when it comes to future powertrain upgrades than other auto makers with the only sources of info being leaked by unreliable sources here and on other internet sites. The only thing I can glean is they will be adding "Valvematic" to the Tundra in '08 or '09 (it will debut later this year out of country), which is said to boost the HP numbers to a bit over 400 and more TQ while getting 5-10% better fuel economy. But ive yet to hear of any solid info on a diesel although I know it is in the wings with the new Hino plant being built, or of any hybrid type systems that will better the fuel economy of the big Tundra. They certainly have the technological background for it seeing as they have the prius and a host of other hybrids.

So here goes my prediction, I think by 2009, Toyota will be at the bottom of the pile again in the HP/TQ wars. But I must say two things. One, its really a ridiculously good pile already, separated by very small things overall. Secondly, the HP/TQ wars cant go on much more really, and the new big battleground will be fuel economy and technological features, and I think that Toyota will probably move in that direction rather than follow the power game.

So my questions are:
Where do you think the Tundra will be HP/TQ-wise in the next few years?
Do you think Toyota should even participate in the upcoming Horsepower Wars or should it go its own way?

[kathyricks]

You can expect Toyota will increase the horsepower and torque of the 5.7 Tundra V8 by equipping it with some of the same technology it currently uses in the the Lexus LS460 4.6 liter V8. The LS460 V8 is essentially a shorter piston stroke, but higher tech version of the Tundra 5.7.

[kathyricks]

No one can predict whether or not there will be future horsepower "wars".

In the late 1960's there was a horsepower war that peaked in 1970 and then it was all downhill from there due to gasoline price hikes & shortages and and tough new tailpipe emission standards.

In 1977, for example, GM DOWNSIZED all its full size and intermediate sized cars in all respects including engine size and horsepower because of the high price and limited availablity of gasoline. The gas problem was a huge boost to Toyota since nearly all it's cars in those days were gas sipping economy models.

[07 firecrew]

tundra can go with direct injection, hp over 400 easy. the tundras engine is the same as lexus, but with much more stroke.

[seadragon]

I was talking with someone who works at a Toyota dealership and we were discussing the 5.7L engine. He told me something interesting. He said that when Toyota releases new engines, they are not "fully opened up" power wise. He said that they will usually increase HP by changing the programming of the electronics and open up the engine a bit more to keep interest in the new model years.

It does makes sense to me that a vehicle manufacturer would do this and not release the most powerful version of an engine up front. This would give them the ability to play the HP game without too much effort for a few years.

I don't know if this it really the case or not, but its certainly possible. Look at computer chip speeds, same chip but a little faster each release until a new chip replaces it.

A few years ago, I was looking at Nissan Altimas. The sales guy there said that Nissan was dedicated to HP increases and to stay on top (at least in cars). It was true that they seemed to always have a few HP more than their competitors. Again, this was about 6 years ago, not sure what they're like today.

So, in answer to Chardog's question, I would say Toyota will play the HP game with the traditional big 3 if they are serious about being in the fullsize truck market now.

[Chardog]

Originally Posted by kathyricks

No one can predict whether or not there will be future horsepower "wars".

In the late 1960's there was a horsepower war that peaked in 1970 and then it was all downhill from there due to gasoline price hikes & shortages and and tough new tailpipe emission standards.

In 1977, for example, GM DOWNSIZED all its full size and intermediate sized cars in all respects including engine size and horsepower because of the high price and limited availablity of gasoline. The gas problem was a huge boost to Toyota since nearly all it's cars in those days were gas sipping economy models.

This is not a prediction, its an inevitability. It seems pretty obvious with what the other automakers have down the pipeline.

There are however very real similarities between the old HP wars and the new ones:
U.S. Senate votes to raise mileage standards to 35 mpg for cars, SUVs - International Herald Tribune
However, this time we have more technology and there wont be any scrambling to make every model less powerful.

[firetruck41]

It will be like it always has, every year a different manufacturer will come out with something more powerful than the previous "leader".

[laytonj1]

The thing I find funny is the number of people (almost everybody) who complain about $3+ a gallon gas and the low gas mileage their vehicles get (like some folks on this forum) and yet as the automakers continue to put bigger and more powerful engines in their vehicles most folks opt for the largest engines.... I know I do!!

Jim

[hoss10]

Let's see Toyota spends more on R and D then the "Big 3", combined! I'm thinking they can pretty much do what ever they want with regards to engines.

I'm hoping that everyone regains their senses and puts more effort into engines which use less fuel and still provide adequate power for a truck. I never have been able to understand the concept of having a fast truck. Isn't that kind of like having a Sumo wrestler who is a good ballet dancer. Sure he can do it but why?

[bbfirebird]

I don't think the truck market is going into a HP/TQ war reallyas much as I think it is going into a fuel economy war. That's the reason the Big 3 are coming out with diesels in their light truck lineup. A diesel engine in the mid-4-liter range would get quite good fuel economy, definitely noticeably better than the 5.4-6.0 gas engines that are out now. Having the "most horsepower" in a 1/2 ton truck isn't as critical of a selling point as it is in, say, a Corvette-Viper or Camaro-Mustang rivalry. If it was, then the Tundra would be selling better than expected (or at least AS expected). If you have three trucks, all within a 30 HP range of each other, HP isn't going to be the deciding factor. However if you have three trucks, and two get 15 mpg and one gets 18 mpg, that could definitely be a major factor, especially since $3 gas seems to be here to stay.

Regarding the original poster's comments on deciding what to do with buying a truck or waiting, I would wait. The Silverados seem nice, but a 6-speed would help it out a lot. Not trying to start a flame war, but between the camshaft failures and transmission failures on (a few) of the new Tundras, I would at least wait another model year and see if it is truly just a very freak thing or if there turns out to be more of a problem. Only time can tell with that. The Dodge redesign, from what I've read, is supposed to re-assert Dodge's reputation as the innovative truck design leader. Should be interesting to see how it turns out.

[Art64]

2007 Tundra---the truck that's changing it all. Now, the competitions are doing the same thing. Bigger engines, 6 speed tranny, 300+ HP, 400+ Ft Lbs torque, etc, etc.

[qwq]

Originally Posted by hoss10

Let's see Toyota spends more on R and D then the "Big 3", combined! I'm thinking they can pretty much do what ever they want with regards to engines.

I'm hoping that everyone regains their senses and puts more effort into engines which use less fuel and still provide adequate power for a truck. I never have been able to understand the concept of having a fast truck. Isn't that kind of like having a Sumo wrestler who is a good ballet dancer. Sure he can do it but why?

I agree.

[Mr. Creosote]

The need for speed has been around in all vehicle types as long as motorized transportation itself, except perhaps for older folks who like a slower pace. For me, bring on the engines and lets let the market decide what happens.

[hinkleid]

I will go for the first half ton truck maker that puts in a diesel. Probably Dodge as claimed. If Toyota wanted to truly dominate the market, they should have been all over this. I would personally admire the innovation of them putting the diesel out over the speed of the 5.7

[Pbbobkanobi]

How "clean" are modern diesel engines compared to gas? I have never owned a diesel and don't any any heavy toys to tow but I am a big fan of HP and torque though so I am curious. Do diesel engines have better emissions nowadays? The durability of diesel engines is what would sell me.