ECM problem solved

[Someguy123]

i made a post awhile back about a problem with my ecm. i got a CEL, but the dealer was unable to connect to the ECM.

after 2 days with my truck, they found the problem. back in november i had a remote start installed. the installer zip tied the harness for the starter/alarm, to another harness behind the driver side knee board.(the plastic panel underneath the steering wheel.)

it turns out, that harness was the wiring, going into the main relay for the ECM. when they zip tied it together, it must have pulled all those wires off the relay. because the tech said the relay wires were all in the wrong places. so the installer, must have just plugged them all back in, assuming he had got the right positions.

I am not even sure how the ECM could operate at all like this. but apparently it fried something in the ECM. and made the ECM a read only unit. the tech was unable to rewrite the VIN to the ECM. so it is deemed to be a throw away now.

oddly enough the truck ran fine for 3 months or so. then i got the CEL. i was confused why the truck would be fine for 3 months, if the problem was caused by the alarm install. then suddenly have a CEL. but it turns out the CEL is unrelated. the ECM has a code for a steering pressure sensor or something along those lines. So it is somewhat lucky that this sensor failed. because if the CEL wouldnt have come on till a years time. it would have made it very difficult to go after the stereo shop. for the cost of the repairs.

so now i have a bill of 2370$ from toyota. obviously this wont be covered under warranty, since it was deemed the fault of the alarm install. so i have to try and prove to the stereo shop that it was their fault. and get them to pay for it. i really hope i dont have to go to small claims court with them.

sorry for the long post. just thought i should share. maybe something to look out for, if you plan on doing an install yourself.

[thumbster]

I wish you luck on this one. It's going to be very hard to get the alarm install shop to admit responsibility for something that happened a year ago. You'll have to get the dealer to back you in court on that statement for having a leg to stand on. I know from previous experiences that these install shops will fight you tooth and nail defending themselves and their so called false positive reputation.

[Someguy123]

Originally Posted by thumbster

I wish you luck on this one. It's going to be very hard to get the alarm install shop to admit responsibility for something that happened a year ago. You'll have to get the dealer to back you in court on that statement for having a leg to stand on. I know from previous experiences that these install shops will fight you tooth and nail defending themselves and their so called false positive reputation.

well the install was just done in november. so it hasnt been real long time. and the bill i got from the dealer has all the notes from the tech. he actually did a good job writing it up. and he clearly states that whoever did the alarm install is the fault of the problem. if the installer gives me any hassle, ill just take them to small claims court. it only costs 75$ to file for small claims. and im prety sure with the evidence i have. it wont be hard to get a judge to side with me.

[whinton]

Id say go get their ***!! I had a friend once get an alarm installed and they messed it all up. They denied the whole thing was their fault after court they were paying for everything. I just wish people would take time when working on car and trucks. I bet if that was their own truck they would have been more careful.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by Someguy123

it turns out, that harness was the wiring, going into the main relay for the ECM. when they zip tied it together, it must have pulled all those wires off the relay. because the tech said the relay wires were all in the wrong places. so the installer, must have just plugged them all back in, assuming he had got the right positions.

I'm not sure I can buy this explaination. All of the wires are in connectors that hold them captive; it would take a very significant amount of pull to force these wires to pop out of the connector- well beyond simply zip tying some other wires to them. This is especially true since everything worked fine for a while after the install. As small as some of the wires are, I would expect they would break before they would pull out of the connector.

Here's another possibility of what happened: Quite possibly the Toyota tech spent a bunch of time trying to find the problem, ultimately replacing the failed ECM. Ordinarily it would have been a warranty issue where Toyota would pay a set amount for the replacement. The tech, however, had spent much more time finding/fixing the problem. The only way he could be compensated for that amount of time was to blame it on the alarm installer so that it wasn't a warranty issue.

Without more than the potentially self serving statement of the Toyota tech, you may not be able to win in court- especially since the vehicle operated fine for a period of time after leaving the installer.

[jkd]

Quite possibly the Toyota tech spent a bunch of time trying to find the problem, ultimately replacing the failed ECM. Ordinarily it would have been a warranty issue where Toyota would pay a set amount for the replacement. The tech, however, had spent much more time finding/fixing the problem. The only way he could be compensated for that amount of time was to blame it on the alarm installer so that it wasn't a warranty issue.

Yea, us mechanics love it when someone who probably wouldn't last in a auto shop til lunch time appoints themselves qualified to judge and condemn a mechanic's work who is 3000+ miles away from you.

I'm not sure I can buy this explaination. All of the wires are in connectors that hold them captive;

Since I wasn't able to stick my head under the dash, I don't feel qualified to have an opinion as to what the mess looked like after the guy was done with it, are you sure you do? By the way, with a special tool from Amps Industries, any or all those wires can be remove from the connectors.


Someguy 123: Over the years, shops I've worked in have been involved in deals such as yours. When it was a definite screw-up by another shop, our shop foreman was more than happy to help out the customer by contacting the other shop and informing them what we found. You might want to give that a try first, it would mean more coming from the service mgr. than just you going back and stating what happened.

[DougR]

Originally Posted by jkd

Yea, us mechanics love it when someone who probably wouldn't last in a auto shop til lunch time appoints themselves qualified to judge and condemn a mechanic's work who is 3000+ miles away from you.

Since I wasn't able to stick my head under the dash, I don't feel qualified to have an opinion as to what the mess looked like after the guy was done with it, are you sure you do?

If you'll reread my post a little more carefully, you'll see that I didn't judge or condemn the mechanic, I merely suggested another possibility.

If the original poster is going to sue the remote start installer's shop, he needs to be aware that there are other possible explainations and the credibility of his only witness (the Toyota tech) could be called into question by the install shop. The judge will listen to what BOTH sides have to say.

I obviously never saw the wiring before it was supposedly corrected and therefore I can't say anything with certainty about it. What I can say with certainty, with more than 25 years experience with electronics and wiring (including installing radio equipment and other electronics into vehicles for those 25+ years), is that the Toyota tech's explaination raises the questions that I put in my original post.

Originally Posted by jkd

By the way, with a special tool from Amps Industries, any or all those wires can be remove from the connectors.

According to the OP, the Toyota tech said that a zip tie caused the wires to come out and they were put back in the wrong places. This is exactly my point- it takes a tool to remove the wires...

The install shop, or their attorney, will be able to raise these issues with the judge. The statement of the Toyota tech will not make this a slam dunk in court; it will be weighed with all of the other testimony.

Someguy123: Check the rules of small claims court in your state to see whether attorney's fees are allowed in small claims court. If they are, the $75 to file the case could be tiny compared to the potential attorney's fees that the installer's shop could claim. (Figure $150-$400 per hour for 4 or more hours.)

Did the Toyota tech take any pictures to document what he found, or is it going to be just his word?

[Someguy123]

Originally Posted by DougR

I'm not sure I can buy this explaination. All of the wires are in connectors that hold them captive; it would take a very significant amount of pull to force these wires to pop out of the connector- well beyond simply zip tying some other wires to them. This is especially true since everything worked fine for a while after the install. As small as some of the wires are, I would expect they would break before they would pull out of the connector.

Here's another possibility of what happened: Quite possibly the Toyota tech spent a bunch of time trying to find the problem, ultimately replacing the failed ECM. Ordinarily it would have been a warranty issue where Toyota would pay a set amount for the replacement. The tech, however, had spent much more time finding/fixing the problem. The only way he could be compensated for that amount of time was to blame it on the alarm installer so that it wasn't a warranty issue.

Without more than the potentially self serving statement of the Toyota tech, you may not be able to win in court- especially since the vehicle operated fine for a period of time after leaving the installer.

the truck actually worked fine right until i brought it to toyota. the only problem, was that they were unable to extract any codes from the ECM.


i went and re-read the bill they gave me, with the explanation on it. and it sounds like it wasnt the wires that came out. the actual CAN connectors were plugged in wrong.

i havent pulled the panel off, and had a look under there to see exactly what they are talking about. because im having a hard time understanding how any of this could have happened.

i am thinking that there must be 2 identical CAN bus connectors under that panel. and they had to splice a few wires for the alarm/starter into those connectors. then when they plugged everything back together, they mixed up the CAN connectors.

i understand your thinking, on your possibility of what happened. but i guess i should have given some more information.

i originally brought in the truck for the CEL. they came to the conclusion that the ECM was faulty. so they ordered a new ECM. and rebooked me. then i came in and had the ECM replaced. but the same problem persisted. so they rebooked me yet again to do more trouble shooting. and on the 3rd appointment is when they found the problems with the CAN bus.